Economic Disparity and Associated Social Issues

[Eric_L]

I’m probably tilting at windmills posting this here-but at least I can put my business degree to use here.

In many countries like South Africa and our own US of A, racial segregation went beyond just social behaviors. It also applied to economic opportunity. Removing the racial segregation from the law is a lot faster of a process then removing those preexisting structural economic biases . If you don’t address those economic biases , then lasting discontent and unrest is assured when people realize their economic opportunities are blocked.

Now , economically speaking a blind land grab isn’t a good idea. Nor is unconstitutional government behavior. But if your nations history of economic racism means 10% of your population controls more then 50% of the wealth, it’s a problem which needs to be intelligently solved.

1% of our population controls approximately 38% of the privately held wealth in the US. I suspect that the latter percentage will increase over time. Is that a problem? I am not trolling you, I would like your thoughts.

E

[BCG]

1% of our population controls approximately 38% of the privately held wealth in the US. I suspect that the latter percentage will increase over time. Is that a problem? I am not trolling you, I would like your thoughts.

E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKKQnijnsM

Wealth Inequality in America

politizane
Published on Nov 20, 2012

Infographics on the distribution of wealth in America, highlighting both the inequality and the difference between our perception of inequality and the actual numbers. The reality is often not what we think it is.

References:
https://www.motherjones.com/politics...a-chart-graph/
http://danariely.com/2010/09/30/wealth-inequality/
https://thinkprogress.org/how-unequa...-a1d36a0f10f6/
https://money.cnn.com/2012/04/19/new...-pay/index.htm

[RoyGBiv]

1% of our population controls approximately 38% of the privately held wealth in the US. I suspect that the latter percentage will increase over time. Is that a problem? I am not trolling you, I would like your thoughts.

E

<opens can of worms>
What problems do you attribute to that statistic? Then I'll have something to agree/disagree about.
When was the last time a poor person offered you a job?

The top 1% paid 40% of all Federal taxes collected (2014).
The top 20% paid 97% of all federal taxes (2017)... So what?

I had to beg, borrow, cajole, and work hard on a realistic business plan to get some of those "rich guys" to fund my startup. Did I get funded because I'm _______ <enter social justice bucket name here>, or because I did the hard work?

Would something other than a meritocracy be better? "provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare......", etc?

[Eric_L]

<opens can of worms>
What problems do you attribute to that statistic? Then I'll have something to agree/disagree about.
When was the last time a poor person offered you a job?

The top 1% paid 40% of all Federal taxes collected (2014).
The top 20% paid 97% of all federal taxes (2017)... So what?

I had to beg, borrow, cajole, and work hard on a realistic business plan to get some of those "rich guys" to fund my startup. Did I get funded because I'm _______ <enter social justice bucket name here>, or because I did the hard work?

Would something other than a meritocracy be better? "provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare......", etc?

I am familiar with essentially all you wrote, and do not have a problem with it. it was GardoneVT who wrote that, and I was curious what he thinks (not excluding anyone else in the circle who wants to comment) However, our inequality does not have the fairly direct race/apartheid history that South Africa does. (which is what I think GardoneVT was getting at) I won't comment further on that, because I don't know enough about their situation.

[Joe in PNG]

Inequality of wealth distribution is a common feature of people. Some people are just good at working and making money. Some people are just plain sorry, and wouldn't show up to a job taking inventory for a comatose liquor distributor.

The obvious solution is just take money from the people who have money and give it to the people who don't. Just like the obvious solution for someone with severe malnutrition is giving them food, or giving someone with bad dehydration lots of water to drink. And all of these solutions just make the problems much much worse. Giving people free money seriously screws them up, bit time.

You won't fix this problem unless you turn people into something that isn't people. Doesn't' matter what system you try, it's going to result in a few people having the wealth. In an aristocratic society, most of it belongs to the nobility. In a Communist society, it also winds up in the hands of the nobility- usually the higher ups of the ruling party.

The best bet is let people do their own thing and let the market do what the market does.

[Eric_L]

Inequality of wealth distribution is a common feature of people. Some people are just good at working and making money. Some people are just plain sorry, and wouldn't show up to a job taking inventory for a comatose liquor distributor.

The obvious solution is just take money from the people who have money and give it to the people who don't. Just like the obvious solution for someone with severe malnutrition is giving them food, or giving someone with bad dehydration lots of water to drink. And all of these solutions just make the problems much much worse. Giving people free money seriously screws them up, bit time.

You won't fix this problem unless you turn people into something that isn't people. Doesn't' matter what system you try, it's going to result in a few people having the wealth. In an aristocratic society, most of it belongs to the nobility. In a Communist society, it also winds up in the hands of the nobility- usually the higher ups of the ruling party.

The best bet is let people do their own thing and let the market do what the market does.

I agree with this. I think most people (nearly all?) know inside, even if they don't say it, that it is true. However there are people who believe there will be social unrest, maybe severe, if the income disparity continues to increase, especially if coupled with a perceived inability to climb out of a lower social situation. (I read that in Forbes some time back- written by a money manager, who most likely was in the top 1% of the top 1%. His quote went something like "envisioning the pitchforks and torches coming....)

[Ed L]

The original thread was about South Africa confiscating farms. Perhaps a thread split is in order.

[Joe in PNG]

I agree with this. I think most people (nearly all?) know inside, even if they don't say it, that it is true. However there are people who believe there will be social unrest, maybe severe, if the income disparity continues to increase, especially if coupled with a perceived inability to climb out of a lower social situation. (I read that in Forbes some time back- written by a money manager, who most likely was in the top 1% of the top 1%. His quote went something like "envisioning the pitchforks and torches coming....)

Americans talking income inequality is pretty funny. Back in 1980, my normal, middle class family lived in a three bedroom/ 1 bathroom house with no air con (in Florida). We had a one color tv with rabbit ears, no computer, a phone on the wall of the kitchen. We had two cars, both of which were very basic down to the AM radios, and vinyl seats, and lack of AC, . Dinner out was very very rare, with pizza being a special occasion. Things like computers, cable tv, cell phones, VCR's- all were hyper expensive luxuries.

Now, the average American in the middle class has a house that tends to be a bit larger, with air conditioning, multiple large flat screen tvs hooked to one's choice of content providers. Pretty much everyone has a smart phone, internet, computer, and other tech gizmos. Even the most basic cars available offer features beyond anything available on a 1980 Rolls Royce.

Basically, the average American lives far better and has more than any people around the world ever. Complaining about income inequality here is just plain, good old fashioned whining.

[BCG]

I agree with this. I think most people (nearly all?) know inside, even if they don't say it, that it is true. However there are people who believe there will be social unrest, maybe severe, if the income disparity continues to increase, especially if coupled with a perceived inability to climb out of a lower social situation. (I read that in Forbes some time back- written by a money manager, who most likely was in the top 1% of the top 1%. His quote went something like "envisioning the pitchforks and torches coming....)

"The Pitchforks Are Coming… For Us Plutocrats", by Nick Hanauer. Politico. July/August 2014

It may explain why he, along with other 1%ers, support gun-owner control: so the only thing they have to worry about mobs armed with pitchforks rather than semi-auto rifles. But that fear is misplaced, since gun owners - who tend to be politically conservative - will not rebel as long as they can be convinced their lot is the result of free-market capitalist means.

He's also got two TED talks on the subject:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKCvf8E7V1g

Banned TED Talk: Nick Hanauer "Rich people don't create jobs"

Zubenelgenubiii
Published on May 17, 2012

Via Business Insider: "As the war over income inequality wages on, super-rich Seattle entrepreneur Nick Hanauer has been raising the hackles of his fellow 1-percenters, espousing the contrarian argument that rich people don't actually create jobs. The position is controversial — so much so that TED is refusing to post a talk that Hanauer gave on the subject. National Journal reports today that TED officials decided not to put Hanauer's March 1 speech up online after deeming his remarks "too politically controversial" for the site...".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2gO4DKVpa8

Beware, fellow plutocrats, the pitchforks are coming | Nick Hanauer

TED
Published on Aug 12, 2014

Nick Hanauer is a rich guy, an unrepentant capitalist — and he has something to say to his fellow plutocrats: Wake up! Growing inequality is about to push our societies into conditions resembling pre-revolutionary France. Hear his argument about why a dramatic increase in minimum wage could grow the middle class, deliver economic prosperity ... and prevent a revolution.

Watch more TED Talks on inequality: http://www.ted.com/topics/inequality

[Duelist]

You can succeed using government force to undo bad government force (ex: Plessy v Ferguson).

You won't succeed using government force to change people's minds.

I'd argue that there are few government-erected economic barriers still in place that prevent people from moving up the economic ladder.
#1 on my list is poorly run public schools, #2 is welfare regulation that incentivizes negative outcomes. Neither of these is solved by MORE government.

You know that without those “poorly run” public schools, an awful lot of people wouldn’t have access to any but the bottom most rings of that economic ladder because they wouldn’t have any access to education, right?

*yes, I freely admit that I work in education. Got suggestions on how to run it better? I do, too. First is, in my state, the legislature and voters have to accept that any changes are going to cost money, and then actually fund them. But nobody wants their taxes raised.