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Thread: MA "shoot house" fail, citizen shot

  1. #1
    Site Supporter Erick Gelhaus's Avatar
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    MA "shoot house" fail, citizen shot

    Civilian invited to observe police firearms training was shot after target was put in wrong place

    https://www.masslive.com/news/index....ial_shoot.html

    There are probably a bunch of lessons here - citizen in the shoot house, lack of instructor currency/competency, not really a shoot house, no walk-through, after lunch concerns. What else?

  2. #2
    Site Supporter DocGKR's Avatar
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    Yeah....."shoot house", what a sad display of ignorance by those folks.

    Tarps and paper targets do not contain/stop/deter projectiles fired in unsafe directions.
    Facts matter...Feelings Can Lie

  3. #3
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    East Greenwich, RI
    There are a lot of nuances in shoot house target placement. You can help reduce or encourage shooting outside a zone of responsibility. Movement SOPs play a role. Improper placement can have a serious impact on safety, even in a real shoot house, much less a pretend facility.

    Anytime there is a break or shift in the focus of training, it’s the instructor’s responsibility to do a hard stop and safety reset. Breaks and shifts in focus (dry vs life fire as an example) require starting over with a safety evaluation and brief as appropriate.

    There is a reason having a dedicated safety officer who isn’t teaching is a good thing in scenario type training.

    In the 90’s, the LSP Academy tragically killed a student from another agency by failing to do this during officer survival scenario training. A role player had to leave for court and returned later to the training location. The role player walked into the scenario area with a loaded gun and shot and killed a student. So much fail there and easily prevented.
    Last edited by LSP552; 08-14-2018 at 05:14 AM.

  4. #4
    Site Supporter Lon's Avatar
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    So much fail. Pisses me off. Gives us all a black eye when something like this happens.
    Formerly known as xpd54.
    The opinions expressed in this post are my own and do not reflect the opinions or policies of my employer.
    www.gunsnobbery.wordpress.com

  5. #5
    Not sure that an IDPA stage with tarps for walls should be used in the same sentence as shoot house.

    As much as I hate paperwork, I’m wondering if some form of check list would have minimized this. Not that people can’t forget to do one, but it might minimize things.

    Each run could have a checklist. Time of run, people running it, max points possible, safety check,... kind of like running the event like a documented stage.

    I feel for the officers and victim. Hope the guy comes through and has nothing more than a crazy story to tell.

  6. #6
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    There were mistakes made and the PD is lucky there were no deaths. I applaud the instructors for being creative and trying to do more with what they had, just not enough safety considerations and checks. Sad thing about Massachusetts, other than borrowing a range at Ft. Devens there are basically no municipal police ranges.

  7. #7
    Site Supporter Odin Bravo One's Avatar
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    I’ve had to decline invites to assist with smaller agencies house training for reasons just like this. When discussing safety protocols and control measures, there is still way too much “Well, we just do XYZ and have never had any problems”.

    I’m happy to provide observations that can improve training value and Officer safety, but I’ll only talk to a brick wall so many times before you just gotta get clear before the wall collapses under its own stupidity and takes you with it.
    Last edited by Odin Bravo One; 08-14-2018 at 12:51 PM.
    You can get much more of what you want with a kind word and a gun, than with a kind word alone.

  8. #8
    Agree with TAZ. I have shot in real shoot houses for training and competition, I have shot match stages in temporary enclosures on regular ranges. You must be careful arranging a real shoot house, you must be extremely careful in setting up improvisations. A spectator with no involvement is a risk.
    Code Name: JET STREAM

  9. #9
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    The county range has a shoot house. While I'm sure the cool guys of SWAT and their buddies have done live fire, most use it strictly for Simunition. The range we utilize has a Simunition house that obviously cannot be used for live fire. While I see significant value in live fire houses and the risk of force-on-force devolving into paintball, incidents like this make me understand why some agencies avoid live fire houses.

  10. #10
    Site Supporter Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnc36rcpd View Post
    The county range has a shoot house. While I'm sure the cool guys of SWAT and their buddies have done live fire, most use it strictly for Simunition. The range we utilize has a Simunition house that obviously cannot be used for live fire. While I see significant value in live fire houses and the risk of force-on-force devolving into paintball, incidents like this make me understand why some agencies avoid live fire houses.
    I don’t see any real benefit in a shoot house over a sim scenario house. We’re gonna be building a scenario house at our place soon. A department can buy ALOT of sim equipment and ammo for decades with what a commercial shoot house costs.
    Formerly known as xpd54.
    The opinions expressed in this post are my own and do not reflect the opinions or policies of my employer.
    www.gunsnobbery.wordpress.com

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