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Thread: Predictive tests in water

  1. #41
    Site Supporter DocGKR's Avatar
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    WOUND BALLISTIC TEST METHODOLOGY:

    KOCHER, LaGARDE, & EARLY MEDICAL RESEARCH:
    Since the advent of armed conflict eons ago, combatants have attempted to discover methods to measure wounding effects and find ways to increase the lethality of their weapons. The history of attempting scientifically based wound ballistic research begins with Dr. Theodore Kocher’s work and Dr. LaGarde/COL Thompson’s studies in the late 1800’s, along with those by DeLorme, Bircher, Stevenson, Longmore, and Makins. The efficacy of the concepts elucidated by these early wound ballistic researchers was proven on the far flung battlefields of British colonial campaigns, the Spanish-American War, the Russian-Japanese and Turkish-Balkan conflicts, and during the carnage of World War One. Unfortunately following WWI and for much of the 20th century wound ballistics entered into a metaphorical dark age, where the majority of research was marred by erroneous emphasis on kinetic energy “deposit”, a failure to fully comprehend the physiologic and anatomic effects of temporary stretch in relation to permanent crush during a projectile’s path through tissue, the use of tissue simulants that had no correlation with living tissue, and an over-reliance on flawed computer models.

    KE & P(I/H):
    Through the 1950’s and 1960’s, U.S. Army estimates of bullet lethality were obtained by firing projectiles into 20% ordnance gelatin, measuring the kinetic energy (KE) deposited in the tissue simulant, and then relating the “deposited” KE to some previously determined empirical relationship between KE and the probability of incapacitation, given a hit P(I/H). The KE theory postulated that the energy deposit measured in the first 15 cm of 20% gelatin correlated linearly with the volume of damage that would be found in 20.5 cm of tissue penetration. This methodology used by Aberdeen Ballistic Research Lab (BRL) and the Biophysics Laboratory of Edgewood Arsenal was completely flawed for numerous reasons, including the fact that kinetic energy is not a wounding mechanism, KE does not reflect anatomic and physiological damage from penetrating projectiles, and the probability of a hit is a training function, not a wound ballistics issue.

    RII/COMPUTERMAN:
    The Relative Incapacitation Index (RII) developed by the National Institute of Justice Law Enforcement Assistance Administration in 1973, was an attempt to determine which handgun bullets would have the greatest wounding effect and would incapacitate a human most reliably. Using a overly simplistic “computer man” model of human anatomy, RII erroneously assumed that the size of the temporary cavity produced by a given handgun bullet in ordnance gelatin is directly proportional to the wounding effect and incapacitation produced by that bullet in a human. The study recommended lightweight, high velocity bullets with rapid expansion in tissue and frangible, pre-fragmented bullets, such as the Glaser Safety Slug, as producing the greatest wounding effect and most reliable incapacitation in humans. The RII completely ignored the size and depth of the permanent cavity, the tissue which is actually destroyed by the bullet. Since many tissues in the human body are elastic, they absorb the stretch and tissue displacement produced by temporary cavitation with minimal damage.

    Lightweight, high velocity handgun bullets which rapidly expand in tissue have decreased penetration depth compared to heavier, slower, less deformed bullets and cannot consistently reach the major organs and blood vessels in the torso, especially from transverse and oblique angles. Frangible handgun bullets designed to fragment on impact, like the Glaser and MagSafe, produce large shallow wounds, have extremely limited tissue penetration depth, and cannot consistently reach the major organs and blood vessels in the torso, especially from transverse and oblique angles. In addition, they cannot defeat commonly encountered intermediate obstacles.

    Shallow penetrating, lightweight, high velocity, rapidly expanding bullets and frangible, pre-fragmented bullets were recommended because of the widespread fear of handgun bullet over-penetration, in other words, a bullet which completely passes through the body, exits the other side, and continues on to potentially endanger innocent bystanders. This feared hazard has been greatly exaggerated. The skin on the exit side of the body is tough, resilient, and flexible, and can have the same resistance to bullet passage as four inches (10 cm) of muscle. This often results in bullets ending their path just under the skin at the anticipated exit point rather than over-penetrating as might be expected. In addition, those few bullets which over-penetrate after hitting the target are not any more dangerous to innocent bystanders than the overwhelming majority of bullets fired by law enforcement personnel which miss the intended target all together. According to Special Agent Urey Patrick, formerly Assistant Chief of the FBI Firearms Training Unit:

    "Choosing a bullet because of relatively shallow penetration will seriously compromise weapon effectiveness and needlessly endanger the lives of law enforcement officers using it. No law enforcement officer has lost his life because a bullet over-penetrated his adversary, and virtually none has ever been sued for hitting an innocent bystander through an adversary. On the other hand, tragically large numbers of officers have been killed because their bullets did not penetrate deeply enough."

    The RII was seriously flawed and its recommendations erroneous. Deeper penetrating bullets have proven to be far superior to shallow penetrating bullets in LE OIS incidents since they have sufficient penetration to consistently reach the major organs and blood vessels in the torso, even from transverse and oblique angles and through intermediate obstacles.

    EKE/AKE:
    An outgrowth of the earlier KE theory, the Expected Kinetic Energy (EKE) model was developed by the U.S. military in 1975 to assess bullet lethality; in 1977 this new EKE model became the U.S. recommended method for the NATO small arms trials and also established it as the official Army Model. The EKE model estimated P(I/H) by correlating the weighted sum of experimentally determined, incremental kinetic energy deposits in 20% gelatin with existing estimates of P(I/H) from animal experiments. Note--although the notation “P(I/H)” was and is used in the literature, the meaning assigned was expected value of incapacitation given a hit; the preferred modern notation is E(I/H), expected level of incapacitation, in order to avoid the widespread misunderstanding that “P(I/H)” is a probability of incapacitation. EKE was later renamed AKE (ARRADCOM Kinetic Energy) and remains a current Army and NATO standard.

    To compute the AKE of a particular projectile, ARL obtained the velocity decay curve by shooting into a 38 cm long block of 20% gelatin. The event is recorded with high seed cameras and the velocity versus distance kinetic energy decay curve is extracted by analyzing the camera footage on a frame by frame basis--this is called “dynamic” gel testing. From this decay curve, ARL can derive the energy deposit function within the gelatin medium. This function is then fed into a complex algorithm to calculate the expected level of incapacitation given a hit, or E (I/H). The AKE method for bullets is based upon summing the incremental kinetic energy lost in the gel block multiplied by the probability the projectile is still in the body at the same depth of penetration in the body component (thorax, abdomen, etc…) being evaluated. These probabilities have been generated for the whole body and for a number of specified major body components. The probabilities were estimated from horizontal shots on a number of shot-lines at different angles around a standing male body. This weighted value, AKE, is then inserted into an empirical correlation to predict a level of incapacitation given a hit. It is important to note that current dynamic testing (AKE and E(I/H)) actually measures the energy lost by the projectile, and NOT the damage done by that energy.

    Unfortunately, like its KE predecessor, as well as the RII/COMPUTERMAN, EKE/AKE methodology has numerous flaws, including a continued reliance on kinetic energy deposit as a measure of wounding rather than assessing potential physiologic and anatomic damage potential, an overly simplistic and inaccurate COMPUTERMAN anatomic and physiological model that does not account for different tissue types along a shot-line through the body, an inability for the COMPUTERMAN model to assess shot-lines other than standing and account for intervening body sections, projectiles that in reality have quite distinct terminal performance end up have their reported performance blurred to “just about the same” as all other projectiles when the expected levels of incapacitation are computed using the erroneous COMPUTERMAN model, an overemphasis on temporary stretch effects over permanent crush injuries, an inability to assess the synergistic effects of fragmenting projectiles, and ignoring the requirement that projectiles must have adequate penetration to reach critical anatomic structures deep within the body from any angle and despite intervening objects. AKE also fails to account for projectile total penetration, yaw effects, and bullet fragmentation. Finally, the dynamic AKE method requires expensive test measurement equipment and extensive data reduction and analysis.

    LAIR, FACKLER, & IWBA:
    A renaissance in wound ballistics began in the 1980’s at the Letterman Army Institute of Research (LAIR) Wound Ballistics Laboratory under the direction of COL Martin Fackler. The researchers at LAIR shot multiple projectile types at varying velocities into 50-100 kg hogs as well as various tissue simulants in order to discover which tissue simulant most closely correlated with living muscle tissue. The final determination was that 10% Type A, 250 bloom Pharmagel (250A ordnance gelatin) at 4 degrees Centigrade was the tissue simulant that most closely correlated with living muscle tissue. Gelatin must have approximately the same density as the tissue it is simulating; both 10% and 20% gelatin can fulfill this requirement, but they do so at different temperatures. However, the traditionally used warmer 20% gelatin was determined to result in overexpansion of projectiles and excessive velocity retardation compared to the cooler 10% gelatin that more accurately replicated the damage pattern seen in living tissue. Other advantages of 10% compared to 20% ordnance gelatin is the decreased cost, simpler fabrication, and easier storage. Rather than relying on high speed motion picture analysis of gel block impacts and calculated KE loss, Dr. Fackler’s research at LAIR measured the actual damage the projectile did to the gelatin block by assessing the radial cracks and fissures in the gelatin--this is referred to as “static” gel testing. Compared to the dynamic method, static testing is extremely cost effective and does not require as much time, equipment, or infrastructure to conduct.

    Dr. Fackler’s seminal work emphasized the anatomical and physiological effects of penetrating projectiles and clearly described the primary wounding mechanisms of tissue crush and stretch. His efforts also illuminated the effects of bullet upset--including yaw, fragmentation, and expansion in modifying wounding effects. Dr. Fackler also emphasizing the critical importance of adequate projectile penetration depth to ensure disruption of the major organs and blood vessels in the torso from any angle and through excessive adipose tissue, hypertrophied muscle, or intervening anatomic structures, such as a raised arm. The medical research at LAIR also debunked and decried the frequent overemphasis on kinetic energy, high velocity, occult pressure waves, and faulty computer modeling when attempting to analyze projectile terminal effects in the human body. Obviously, these research results lead to a significant degree of conflict and animosity between the medical researchers at LAIR and the ordnance engineers at Aberdeen, Edgewood, and Picatinny.

    Following his retirement from the military in 1991 and the closing of LAIR, Dr. Fackler founded the International Wound Ballistics Association (IWBA) to continue his research and data dissemination; IWBA put out a quarterly journal of research papers for the next decade. Some of the IWBA’s greatest contributions were in correlating lab testing and LE OIS incident forensic data to validate the accuracy of 10% gelatin as a tissue simulant in shots to living human torsos, developing the 4 layer denim test to assess the ability of handgun JHP projectiles to resist plugging with clothing materials and robustly expand, describing the terminal performance variability of the SMK OTM commonly used by LE and military snipers, recommending heavier 5.56 mm projectiles, exposing exotic ammunition vendors making exaggerated, fraudulent claims, as well as arguing for better body armor testing standards than the flawed NIJ methodology.

    FBI BRF:
    In the wake of the FBI Miami shooting in 1986, the FBI launched an ambitious program to improve the state of LE wound ballistics. The FBI solicited input from individuals in the military, law enforcement, medical, engineering, and forensic communities who were widely respected for their wound ballistic expertise; with this guidance, the FBI Ballistic Research Facility at the FBI Academy in Quantico, VA was established. Round table wound ballistic seminars were held by the FBI in 1987 and 1993. Like the researchers at LAIR, the FBI rejected the flawed “computer man” modeling, calculations based on kinetic energy, and exaggerated temporary stretch effects in favor of an anatomic and physiologic damaged based “static” analysis using 10% ordnance gelatin testing. Most importantly, the FBI BRF quantified adequate penetration depth for duty projectiles as being between 12 and 18 inches and established standardized intermediate barrier testing. In addition, the FBI BRF has documented the advantages gained in transitioning from handgun caliber sub-machine guns to rifle caliber carbines, such as the 5.56 mm M4, for LE entry and patrol use, emphasized the procurement of ammunition capable of defeating intermediate barriers with minimal reduction in terminal effectiveness (i.e. “barrier blind), and designed and implementing the most comprehensive and innovative body armor assessment protocol in existence. The FBI BRF shares their expertise and testing acumen with U.S. military SOF organizations needing mission essential, time-sensitive, accurate, precise, real-world relevant wound ballistic data that is unavailable via the expensive, time consuming, bureaucracy laden conventional military testing establishment. The FBI BRF provides crucial input regarding innovative new munitions developed to meet SOF warfighting needs, especially since the onset of anti-terrorist combat operations in the wake of 9/11/01.

    COMPUTERMAN/ORCA:
    U.S. Army Research Laboratory’s Survivability Lethality Analysis Directorate’s (ARL/SLAD) Operational Requirement-based Casualty Assessment (ORCA) computer modeling system was initiated in 1992 and has continued to the present. The COMPUTERMAN model of the human body is composed of a large number of horizontal cross-sections in which all tissues (muscles, organs, bones, blood vessels, and nerves) are dimensioned in detail. The limbs can be articulated to some degree (positions that cannot be created include arms or legs crossing in front of the body). Shot-lines through COMPUTERMAN are constrained to be straight lines between entry and exit points. A particular trajectory in the body is computed from the parameters of the fragment; and the determination of the resulting incapacitation is made from the hole size made in the various tissues encountered. COMPUTERMAN makes estimates of level of incapacitation based on the levels of functioning present in the four limbs at specified time intervals after wounding and on their importance to specific missions.

    ORCA attempts to be a more comprehensive model for estimating incapacitation from a number of classes of body injury. ORCA does include a far wider range of injury mechanisms, extends the measure of incapacitation beyond the four limbs, and uses a more detailed model of the human body. Unfortunately, ORCA still contains as its ballistic insult subroutine, a refined version of the flawed COMPUTERMAN, because of this, the current ballistic wounding model is the same as COMPUTERMAN. The ORCA model proposes several metrics that attempt to evaluate the impairment caused by injuries to the body, for example, the Weighted Task Average Impairment (WTAI) metric provides the supposed percent reduction of impaired tasks relevant to a specific activity or job. Another metric, the Job Impairment (JI) is used to determine if an average human can successfully perform the totality of tasks that in aggregate constitute a specific job, for example infantry rifleman, vehicle crewman, helicopter pilot, etc... ORCA is compromised by a strong reliance on adaptation of previously flawed COMPUTERMAN models & EKE/AKE methodology, a failure to fully appreciate the infinite variety of stochastic variables inherent in trying to predict the potential incapacitation of a human, and an excessive averaging of measurements leading to loss of data fidelity (with too many fuzzy data points and gross averaging of physiological responses, a hit from a .22LR begins to look similar to a hit from a .338 Lap Mag).

    JSWB-IPT:
    The U.S. Joint Service Wound Ballistic Integrated Product Team (JSWB-IPT) was founded in 2002 following increasing complaints about the poor performance of issue 5.56 mm ammunition in CQB by U.S. SOF units engaged in OEF (Operation Enduring Freedom) combat operations. Feedback from the field suggested there was a larger performance differential between small-arms systems than predicted by the Army’s standard AKE and ORCA models of terminal performance evaluation; specifically, many combat AAR’s suggested that AKE/ORCA predicted better terminal performance from issued 5.56 mm ammunition than actually occurred in real-world combat engagements. To attempt to sort through these issues, the JSWB-IPT brought together experts from numerous communities, including "military users, law enforcement, trauma surgeons, aero ballisticians, weapon and munitions engineers, and other scientific specialists". Over the next 4 years researchers with the JSWB-IPT made more than 10,000 gelatin test shots at 4-6, 100, and 300 meters using eight calibers in 53 different combinations of cartridges and weapons at a cost of $6 million.

    Differences between those organizations using static vs. dynamic methodologies soon became fractious. USSOCOM, NSWC Crane, the USMC, Department of Homeland Security (DHS), the FBI BRF, and almost all other U.S. LE agencies utilized some form of static testing in 10% gelatin. Alternatively, historical Army testing, current ARL testing, the U.S. Secret Service, and much of NATO utilized dynamic test methods in 20% gelatin. Beyond the gelatin mix ratio controversy, ARL took issue with the use of static damage based metrics to evaluate projectile performance and insisted the dynamic method was the only official Army “lethality” model, despite its failure to fully reflect actual combat derived wound ballistic findings. In contrast, military organizations and LE agencies with strong, scientifically based ammunition terminal performance testing programs have conducted reviews of their shooting incidents with much the same results as those originally reported by Gene Wolberg of San Diego PD in the IWBA proceedings--that there is an extremely strong correlation between properly conducted and interpreted 10% ordnance gelatin static laboratory studies and the anatomic and physiological effects of projectiles in actual human shooting incidents. Likewise, the last several years of OCONUS military operations have provided a tremendous amount of combat derived terminal performance information. When the JSWB-IPT analyzed this information in aggregate, the test protocol that was found to most closely correlate with actual shooting results and became the agreed upon JSWB-IPT “standard” evolved from the one first developed by Dr. Fackler at LAIR in the 1980’s, promoted by the IWBA in the 1990’s, and used by most reputable wound ballistic researchers, as noted above--static 10% gel testing.

    Somehow in the 6 weeks between 12 April 2006 when the 331 page JSWB-IPT final report draft copy was submitted to U.S. Army higher command levels for review and 23 May 2006 when the JSWB-IPT results were publicly unveiled by the Army, the paper had shrunk to a mere 19 pages, the JSWB-IPT major findings were erased from the document, and the tenor of the report was utterly altered…

    Partly in response to the truncated JSWB-IPT results and dissatisfaction with the U.S. Army’s continued use of the flawed ORCA computer modeling, the PM of USMC Infantry Weapons instituted a Phase I ammunition study using FBI BRF testing methodology. The use of the FBI protocols allowed the testing to proceed rapidly and cost efficiently. The Marine Phase I ammunition study dated 11 August 2006, contrasted U.S. military issue 5.56 mm ammunition with FBI 5.56 mm barrier blind ammunition, as well as the 6.5G and 6.8 SPC intermediate calibers. In this testing, the 6.8 mm 115 gr OTM performed best, followed by the FBI 5.56 mm 62 gr bonded JSP and 6.5G 120 gr OTM; none of the military issue 5.56 mm ammunition performed as well, especially when assessing intermediate barrier capability and initial upset depths. This further conformed the results discovered by the JSWB-IPT.
    Facts matter...Feelings Can Lie

  2. #42
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    TISSUE SIMULANTS:

    Currently, a variety of equally important methodologies are used for terminal performance testing, including actual shooting incident reconstruction, forensic evidence analysis, and post-mortem data and/or surgical findings; properly conducted ethical animal test results; and laboratory testing--this includes the use of tissue simulants proven to have correlation with living tissue. All of these areas provide important information. As noted earlier, the tissue simulant that has proven to most closely correlate with living muscle tissue is Type 250A ordnance gelatin at 4 deg C.

    Other simulants fail to provide accurate replication of various facets of projectile terminal performance that occur in shots to living human tissue. Cadaver tissue lacks elasticity, tends to be disrupted by pressures that would simply push living tissue aside, and demonstrates exaggerated projectile effects leading to far more extensive damage than that produced in living tissue. Animal testing in cattle uses living tissue, but normal anatomic and physiological differences between individual animals leads to substantial differences in terminal effects; in addition, there are substantial differences in animal anatomy compared to human, animal testing is quite expensive and time consuming, and accurate data collection and comparison is difficult. Water is a good simulant to show maximum projectile upset, but penetration is 1.6-2 times deeper than in tissue and stretch effects are not visible. Inelastic simulants such as clay, duxseal, and soap can provide good estimates of penetration depth and bullet upset, but exaggerate stretch effects from the temporary cavity. Perma-gel and other synthetic polymer simulants can provide a reasonable result for bullet penetration and expansion, but under-represent bullet yaw, fragmentation, and stretch effects. Computer modeling may one day provide the best opportunity to study projectile effects outside the human body, however to date, the current models are overly-simplistic, use too many excessively averaged assumptions of anatomic and physiological factors, and fail to fully and accurately represent the complex dynamics of the interaction between living tissue and penetrating projectiles.
    Last edited by DocGKR; 08-20-2018 at 10:48 PM.
    Facts matter...Feelings Can Lie

  3. #43
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    LETHALITY & INCAPACITATION vs. TERMINAL EFFECTIVENESS & DAMAGE:

    The nebulous term "Lethality" is inappropriate and misleading and should ideally be banned from all discussions of terminal performance. What if an enemy combatant is hit with a projectile and immediately ceases hostile actions, but is not killed? If “Lethality” is the measured and defined metric, then the projectile has failed, because the opponent did not receive a lethal wound, although in actuality the projectile was extremely effective in stopping hostilities. Similarly, if an opponent is fatally shot, but manages to wipe out an entire squad of friendly personnel before succumbing to their wound, the projectile demonstrated 100% “Lethality”, but was utterly ineffective at stopping the enemy from continuing their attack. The phrase "Terminal Effectiveness" is far more accurate and appropriate than “Lethality”, as the death of an enemy combatant is then only one possible consequence instead of a stated intent and defined requirement for success.

    Likewise, “Incapacitation” is something that is impossible to accurately calculate or predict. Physiological damage potential is the only factor that can be accurately measured and it is the only metric that has been shown to have any correlation with field results in actual shooting incidents, based on law enforcement autopsy findings, as well as historical and ongoing combat trauma results. In other words a “Damage” based metric has relevance to and accurately reflects the real world, while other measures of "Lethality" and "Incapacitation" are elaborate fantasy games of mathematical calculations and engineering statistics that fail to truly reflect the fact that in the gritty realm of face-to-face combat, incapacitating the enemy is about rapidly inflicting sufficient physiological DAMAGE to the enemy’s critical anatomic structures in order to stop that opponent from continuing to be a lethal threat. Thus, valid wound ballistic testing procedures measure DAMAGE.

    The words of a U.S. Marine Corps Battalion Commander with extensive combat experience are telling:

    “With damage based measures we are showing the end-users a picture of a gel block with a big hole through it and saying "Imagine that is a human, wouldn't that hurt." With dynamic based measures we are saying "Trust my math".

    The damage based metric defines the potential of the round, under specific circumstances, given a single engagement. Measuring “incapacitation” seems to focus more on the statistical likelihood the target is still functioning at the conclusion of an engagement. In my own simple mind I am hesitant to place too much confidence in level of incapacitation for the following reasons:

    1. It's too squishy - The measure is based on someone's guess as to a percentage of the time the target will choose to stop doing what he is doing because of a particular engagement. Everything is averaged; average target with average motivation, average hit placement, average effect on target. If down the road we redefine any of these average values the result is completely different. However if we shoot a gel block with a particular round today and say "Damn, that's a big hole", we don't introduce a bunch of changeable values and the result is roughly repeatable.

    2. It gives an illusion of precision and scientific rigor that is just that; illusory - I don't mean to call in to question any of the rigor applied in the process of achieving the result. I trust fully that in dynamic modeling those who are doing it are correct in how they apply the statistical magic to arrive at the result, but the assignment of values to what does or does not equate to incapacitation are just as much of a guess as they are in the static method.

    3. Accepting Level of Incapacitation is the first step down the road towards accepting the comparison of systems by "stowed kills" and "unit lethality". - Assessing the effect of a particular system on unit lethality over the course of a engagement or series of engagement has some place in evaluating small arms, but it must always take a back seat to evaluating the system based on it's performance in a single shot and what costs you accept to get that result (weight, maneuverability, range, etc). I understand if you are going to run a couple of million iterations through a computer model, it is necessary to look at it from the perspective of percentage incapacitation, unit lethality, etc. But the danger is someday looking at two systems - A has a 10% chance of killing my target in a single engagement, B has a 1% chance of killing my target in a single engagement. I can only carry 50 rounds of A, but I can carry 1,000 rounds of B. If I compare "stowed kills" I am carrying 5 kills with A, and 10 kills with B, so B must be better. Yet when I walk around the corner and there is a single bad guy waiting there who wants to kill me, I would rather be carrying system A.


    As noted by one of the JSWB-IPT researchers, the number of variables in combat is nearly infinite and terminal ballistic performance has a tremendous deviation surrounding the average result--anything can happen on any given day. Nonetheless, when an end-user experiences a terminal performance result in combat that is far different from the average effect he was told to expect by wound ballistic modeling, he no longer trusts the math. When using models like WTAI that overly average terminal performance and physiological factors, simplistic ideas such as “stowed kills” begin to pre-dominate and the predicted “average effectiveness” for most small arms systems appear similar. Note--the Stowed Kills (SK) metric has been used for both small and large caliber weapon systems; it is, essentially, a balance of the “killing potential” of the system against the weight of the system. Due to the modeling flaws when averaging “lethality” metrics, the SK philosophy ultimately favors weapon systems with the lightest weight and largest ammunition load, even if their actual terminal performance in combat proves less than desirable. Unfortunately, such modeling failures often leads to individual incidents were combat personnel find their weapons systems fail to meet their needs in specific engagements. Damage-based metrics like the static gel testing are highly attractive to end-user personnel because of the immediate relation they can make between their weapon system and what they can expect it to do to enemy combatants. The young Corporal kicking in a door in hostile village cares little about complex calculations, theoretical computer modeling, or physiological averages--his only desire is that his rifle can accurately, reliably, and rapidly deliver projectiles that will rapidly create enough physiological damage to rapidly stop the AK47 or PKM wielding terrorist he might have to engage once inside the structure.
    Facts matter...Feelings Can Lie

  4. #44
    Outstanding! Thank you for the fascinating and incredibly comprehensive response, Doc.

    That looks to be quite a procedure and I hope that the result was what you had hoped for your patient.

    I just finished reading your posts and will have to take some time to absorb all of it. I truly do appreciate the time that you've taken from your schedule to address the questions that I have asked earlier in this thread regarding the P[I/H] and E[I/H] models and related models like the AKE/ORCA.

    As stated earlier in post 29 of this thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by the Schwartz View Post
    While I am thinking of the BRL P[I/H] model (e.g.: Dziemian, 1960) and the yields that I have used in prior posts in this thread, I'd also like to take the time to clarify the position that I hold regarding the use and implications of the P[I/H] metric and all of the equations associated with that metric. I am very thick-skinned and I simply do not take myself, or any version of these P[I/H] models, so seriously that I would ever take offense towards anyone expressing their opinion, opposing or in favor of, the use and yields of these P[I/H] models. The P[I/H] models, produced by Sturdivan and Bruchey, Dziemian et. al., and Kokinakis and Sperrazza, are not of my creation and, as a result, I am unable to take offense from view points that find fault or disagree with the implications of these types of P[I/H] models. I include the yields of these P[I/H] models simply because I enjoy such algorithms for what they are in my own very 'nerdy' perspective....a lot of fun: statistical experimental design, analytical mathematics. With this thought, I welcome any well-reasoned opinion on this matter and any other topic.
    Obviously, I 'get' it-

    Quote Originally Posted by DocGKR View Post
    2. It gives an illusion of precision and scientific rigor that is just that; illusory - I don't mean to call in to question any of the rigor applied in the process of achieving the result. I trust fully that in dynamic modeling those who are doing it are correct in how they apply the statistical magic to arrive at the result, but the assignment of values to what does or does not equate to incapacitation are just as much of a guess as they are in the static method.
    -so if you wish for me to exclude the P[I/H] metrics from further water test analyses, I can, and will, do so.

    I note that in Chapter 7 of Bullet Penetration, (pp. 122 - 125) MacPherson discusses the use of water as a valid tissue simulant (Fackler ML. Handgun Performance Review. Intl Def Rev 1988; 21(5) pp. 555 - 557) citing on page 123, that, "The near identical expansion of bullets in water, tissue, or realistic soft solid tissue simulants is known to be true from experiment". This statement to me seems to suggest that Dr. Fackler's article, Fackler ML. Simplified Bullet Effect Testing. Wound Ballistics Rev 2001;5(2): 21 - 24 and articles preceding Dr. Fackler's article such as, Jones RL. Water Testing .38 Special +P Hollow Points. Wound Ballistics Rev 1997;3(1): 13 - 16, where Jones uses the Poncelet form as modified by Duncan MacPherson in Bullet Penetration to predict the maximum penetration depth ('Table 3' on page 16 of Wound Ballistics Rev 1997;3(1)) of those projectiles that he fired into, and recovered from, water as suggested in Cotey, Jr. G. A Poor Man's Ballistics Lab. Rifle, March - April 1990; 22 (2) and the accompanying article, MacPherson D. The Dynamics of Tissue Simulation. Wound Ballistics Rev 1997;3( 1 ): 21 - 23, where Duncan MacPherson discusses at length the dynamic similtude of water and seems to conclude that water is suitable terminal ballistic test medium. I also note that Jones did not use MacPherson's equations in his article, as he states on page 14 that, ''The penetration of each of the rounds tested was estimated using Figures 10-6 and 10-7 as described on page 251 of "Bullet Penetration" by Duncan MacPherson", and that those test data that fell outside of the range of the figures were computed by MacPherson at some later time.

    My understanding, which may or may not be an accurate one, is that Duncan MacPherson has correlated his modified Poncelet form found in Bullet Penetration against some 400+ 10% ordnance gelatin test data, finding the use of water as a tissue simulant to be an acceptable methodology. Presently, the modified Poncelet form, as well as the modified THOR equation, which is a power law (in which the determining exponent was fitted to the proprietary body of 10% ordnance gelatin test data), found in Quantitative Ammunition Selection are correlated against nearly 900 independently-sourced (proprietary) 10% ordnance gelatin test data, a few of which I have referred to in this thread.
    Last edited by the Schwartz; 08-21-2018 at 03:32 AM.
    ''Politics is for the present, but an equation is for eternity.'' ―Albert Einstein

    Full disclosure per the Pistol-Forum CoC: I am the author of Quantitative Ammunition Selection.

  5. #45
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    Thanks a lot Doc!
    You have managed to distillate A LOT of very useful (and not easy to obtain) information in those three posts.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfan26 View Post
    Can you post some data on the loads on DocGKR’s list?

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    With the proviso that anyone reading this accepts Dr. Roberts' expert opinion found in these links-

    https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....l=1#post776761

    https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....l=1#post776763

    https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....l=1#post776765

    -as the authoritative and final word on the validity of the BRL P[I/H] models, I will include the yields of the BRL P[I/H] model (Dziemian et al) for those interested in them. The presentation of the BRL P[I/H] model's yield is not an endorsement of its accuracy or its validity, that matter having been settled conclusively by Dr. Roberts' expert opinion (which I have the highest regard for) as expressed in the posts linked above. I include the yields of the BRL P[I/H] model below, not because I accept the P[I/H] model as being unconditionally and absolutely valid, but rather because I find it to be an interesting artifact and entertaining diversion. As I have stated before, I am not ''tied'' to these P[I/H] models in any way,rather in my own very 'nerdy' perspective, I think that they are simply a lot of fun to mess with.

    The following was a water test of the Winchester Ranger-T 230-grain +P JHP (RA45TP) which was conducted a couple of years ago.

    Name:  RA45TP.1.jpg
Views: 801
Size:  36.9 KB

    Winchester Ranger-T 230-grain +P JHP (RA45TP)

    Expanded Diameter: 0.668 inch
    Recovered Weight: 229.7 gr. (99.87% retained weight)
    Impact Velocity: 992 fps

    Test Firearm: Springfield XD with a 5.00-inch barrel
    Test Range: 3 meters (~10 feet)
    Test Medium: H2O @ ~81° Fahrenheit
    Barrier: 2 layers of 8-ounce denim

    Q-model
    DoP: 15.433 inches
    Wound Mass: 2.664 ounces
    Wound Volume: 4.431 cubic inches

    mTHOR model
    DoP: 15.447 inches
    Wound Mass: 2.666 ounces
    Wound Volume: 4.435 cubic inches

    Cumulative Binomial Expected Probability of Incapacitation
    1st-shot P[I/H]: 74.93%
    2nd-shot P[I/H]: 93.72%
    3rd-shot P[I/H]: 98.42%
    ΔE15: -312.013 fpe

    For those curious as to how the Q-model's and mTHOR model's yields compare to how Duncan MacPherson's penetration model would evaluate these water test results, much as was done in Jones RL. Water Testing .38 Special +P Hollow Points. Wound Ballistics Rev 1997;3(1): 13 - 16, where Jones uses the Poncelet form modified by Duncan MacPherson in Bullet Penetration in his article to predict the maximum penetration depths of several .38 Special +P hollow point bullets that he fired into water, those yields are provided here:

    MacPherson model
    DoP: 15.864 inches
    Wound Mass: 2.395 ounces
    Wound Volume: 3.984 cubic inches


    Of course, I encourage everyone to draw their own conclusions.
    Last edited by the Schwartz; 08-21-2018 at 05:06 PM.
    ''Politics is for the present, but an equation is for eternity.'' ―Albert Einstein

    Full disclosure per the Pistol-Forum CoC: I am the author of Quantitative Ammunition Selection.

  7. #47
    DocGKR, Thanks for taking the time to post all of that given your current situation. Your posts were amazing, especially the one quoted here as they apply to the "Cumulative Binomial Expected Probability of Incapacitation," which I don't see as having any logical or valid basis.

    Quote Originally Posted by DocGKR View Post
    LETHALITY & INCAPACITATION vs. TERMINAL EFFECTIVENESS & DAMAGE:

    The nebulous term "Lethality" is inappropriate and misleading and should ideally be banned from all discussions of terminal performance. What if an enemy combatant is hit with a projectile and immediately ceases hostile actions, but is not killed? If “Lethality” is the measured and defined metric, then the projectile has failed, because the opponent did not receive a lethal wound, although in actuality the projectile was extremely effective in stopping hostilities. Similarly, if an opponent is fatally shot, but manages to wipe out an entire squad of friendly personnel before succumbing to their wound, the projectile demonstrated 100% “Lethality”, but was utterly ineffective at stopping the enemy from continuing their attack. The phrase "Terminal Effectiveness" is far more accurate and appropriate than “Lethality”, as the death of an enemy combatant is then only one possible consequence instead of a stated intent and defined requirement for success.

    Likewise, “Incapacitation” is something that is impossible to accurately calculate or predict. Physiological damage potential is the only factor that can be accurately measured and it is the only metric that has been shown to have any correlation with field results in actual shooting incidents, based on law enforcement autopsy findings, as well as historical and ongoing combat trauma results. In other words a “Damage” based metric has relevance to and accurately reflects the real world, while other measures of "Lethality" and "Incapacitation" are elaborate fantasy games of mathematical calculations and engineering statistics that fail to truly reflect the fact that in the gritty realm of face-to-face combat, incapacitating the enemy is about rapidly inflicting sufficient physiological DAMAGE to the enemy’s critical anatomic structures in order to stop that opponent from continuing to be a lethal threat. Thus, valid wound ballistic testing procedures measure DAMAGE.

    The words of a U.S. Marine Corps Battalion Commander with extensive combat experience are telling:

    “With damage based measures we are showing the end-users a picture of a gel block with a big hole through it and saying "Imagine that is a human, wouldn't that hurt." With dynamic based measures we are saying "Trust my math".

    The damage based metric defines the potential of the round, under specific circumstances, given a single engagement. Measuring “incapacitation” seems to focus more on the statistical likelihood the target is still functioning at the conclusion of an engagement. In my own simple mind I am hesitant to place too much confidence in level of incapacitation for the following reasons:

    1. It's too squishy - The measure is based on someone's guess as to a percentage of the time the target will choose to stop doing what he is doing because of a particular engagement. Everything is averaged; average target with average motivation, average hit placement, average effect on target. If down the road we redefine any of these average values the result is completely different. However if we shoot a gel block with a particular round today and say "Damn, that's a big hole", we don't introduce a bunch of changeable values and the result is roughly repeatable.

    2. It gives an illusion of precision and scientific rigor that is just that; illusory - I don't mean to call in to question any of the rigor applied in the process of achieving the result. I trust fully that in dynamic modeling those who are doing it are correct in how they apply the statistical magic to arrive at the result, but the assignment of values to what does or does not equate to incapacitation are just as much of a guess as they are in the static method.

    3. Accepting Level of Incapacitation is the first step down the road towards accepting the comparison of systems by "stowed kills" and "unit lethality". - Assessing the effect of a particular system on unit lethality over the course of a engagement or series of engagement has some place in evaluating small arms, but it must always take a back seat to evaluating the system based on it's performance in a single shot and what costs you accept to get that result (weight, maneuverability, range, etc). I understand if you are going to run a couple of million iterations through a computer model, it is necessary to look at it from the perspective of percentage incapacitation, unit lethality, etc. But the danger is someday looking at two systems - A has a 10% chance of killing my target in a single engagement, B has a 1% chance of killing my target in a single engagement. I can only carry 50 rounds of A, but I can carry 1,000 rounds of B. If I compare "stowed kills" I am carrying 5 kills with A, and 10 kills with B, so B must be better. Yet when I walk around the corner and there is a single bad guy waiting there who wants to kill me, I would rather be carrying system A.


    As noted by one of the JSWB-IPT researchers, the number of variables in combat is nearly infinite and terminal ballistic performance has a tremendous deviation surrounding the average result--anything can happen on any given day. Nonetheless, when an end-user experiences a terminal performance result in combat that is far different from the average effect he was told to expect by wound ballistic modeling, he no longer trusts the math. When using models like WTAI that overly average terminal performance and physiological factors, simplistic ideas such as “stowed kills” begin to pre-dominate and the predicted “average effectiveness” for most small arms systems appear similar. Note--the Stowed Kills (SK) metric has been used for both small and large caliber weapon systems; it is, essentially, a balance of the “killing potential” of the system against the weight of the system. Due to the modeling flaws when averaging “lethality” metrics, the SK philosophy ultimately favors weapon systems with the lightest weight and largest ammunition load, even if their actual terminal performance in combat proves less than desirable. Unfortunately, such modeling failures often leads to individual incidents were combat personnel find their weapons systems fail to meet their needs in specific engagements. Damage-based metrics like the static gel testing are highly attractive to end-user personnel because of the immediate relation they can make between their weapon system and what they can expect it to do to enemy combatants. The young Corporal kicking in a door in hostile village cares little about complex calculations, theoretical computer modeling, or physiological averages--his only desire is that his rifle can accurately, reliably, and rapidly deliver projectiles that will rapidly create enough physiological damage to rapidly stop the AK47 or PKM wielding terrorist he might have to engage once inside the structure.

  8. #48
    the Schwartz,

    First, I have to compliment you on the time and effort you have put into this. I really mean it. It must take you a lot of time and work.


    However, I don't believe that any "Cumulative Binomial Expected Probability of incapacitation" number can be valid for the reasons that DocGKR elaborated on, as well as other reasons, so I don't see the point to include them.
    Last edited by Ed L; 08-21-2018 at 07:29 PM.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Ed L View Post
    the Schwartz,

    First, I have to compliment you on the time and effort you have put into this. I really mean it. It must take you a lot of time and work.
    Thanks, Ed. Your compliment is greatly appreciated. I am sure that you've probably heard the sentiment, ''If you enjoy what you do, you'll never work another day in your life''. I have been blessed enough to live that reality for the majority of my life and doing tests like this, along with predictive modeling, is my 'fun' if you haven't figured that out already (although I'd be willing to bet that you have).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed L View Post
    A friendly criticism, I don't believe that any "Cumulative Binomial Expected Probability of incapacitation" number can be valid, so I don't see the point to include them.
    I do appreciate the criticism you've offered. Enjoying statistical analyses as much as I do, even those constructs that are dated/obsolete/imperfect/flawed or just flat out 'wrong', I believe that there is significant insight to be gained by examining them for what they are, for the purposes that they are/were intended to serve and by whom they were crafted. As stated earlier, I am not ''tied'' to any of these P[I/H] models in any way, nor do I get ''wrapped around the axle'' over criticisms of them. I think that these P[I/H] models are a lot of fun to investigate, as they reflect how an entire institution conceived, and thought about, the science of terminal ballistics 'back in the day'. That is why, along with my proviso earlier in this thread-

    https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....l=1#post777093

    - ''....that anyone reading this accepts Dr. Roberts' expert opinion as the authoritative and final word on the validity of the BRL P[I/H] models, I will include the yields of the BRL P[I/H] model (Dziemian et al) for those interested in them. The presentation of the BRL P[I/H] model's yield is not an endorsement of its accuracy or its validity, that matter having been settled conclusively by Dr. Roberts' expert opinion (which I have the highest regard for) as expressed in the posts linked above. I include the yields of the BRL P[I/H] model below, not because I accept the P[I/H] model as being unconditionally and absolutely valid, but rather because I find it to be an interesting artifact and entertaining diversion. As I have stated before, I am not ''tied'' to these P[I/H] models in any way, rather in my own very 'nerdy' perspective, I think that they are simply a lot of fun to mess with.''

    While I respect Dr. Roberts' opinions tremendously, and on many subjects, I also find the time-frame of terminal ballistic science in the period spanning the 1960s through the late-1990s to be both fascinating and historically noteworthy. Perhaps that is why I am so transfixed by these statistical constructs; they show where we were then, how the mistakes that were made came to be and why they took so long to correct. After all, Santayana, credited with the famous and often paraphrased aphorism, ''Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it'', was right.

    Why forget what went wrong, why it was wrong or that it even existed?
    Last edited by the Schwartz; 08-21-2018 at 08:37 PM.
    ''Politics is for the present, but an equation is for eternity.'' ―Albert Einstein

    Full disclosure per the Pistol-Forum CoC: I am the author of Quantitative Ammunition Selection.

  10. #50
    Member
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    Western US
    Concern was already covered, post can be removed.
    Last edited by John10-19; 08-21-2018 at 09:40 PM. Reason: Concern was already covered, post can be removed.

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