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Thread: Glock trigger manipulation with sights in motion

  1. #1

    Glock trigger manipulation with sights in motion

    For the last few months, I have been shooting the CZ P09, and just loved the pistol. When problems with my interface with the P07/09 recently surfaced, I decided to shoot a Glock 34 with a DeltaPoint Pro, while I sorted out my hardware. I have had a multiple decades love hate relationship with Glock pistols. I love so many things about the Glock, but just have never been a fan of the trigger on low prob shots. After my first Glock session about a week ago, I was complaining to Gabe about the trigger while shooting 25 yard groups, and he basically told me to suck it up, dig down and figure out the Glock trigger again. I decided to do that.

    For a few years, with many pistol types from striker to LEM to DA/SA, I have been using a modified, compressed press out, where in the very last portion of my presentation, I decel the pistol, and work the trigger during that movement to get a compressed surprise break. Recently, with the P09, on successive shots, I follow Leatham doctrine of "stop, aim, jerk the trigger." That works out great with the relatively short, crisp and light CZ trigger. When I tried to do the same thing with the Glock 34, it didn't work nearly as well at speed because of the length, weight and character of the Glock trigger resulting in a less than perfect, consistent press. Pulling out memories of my Glock past experiences, I have associated my very best Glock shooting with doing, in effect a lateral press out, where I do the Glock trigger manipulation with the sights (or in my case the red dot) in motion, so the movement of the pistol masks the junk in the Glock trigger, and the shot breaks as soon as the dot settles on the target. This also works on successive shots to the same target, except the movement is vertical rather than horizontal.

    I have been experimenting with this technique the last few days, and decided to go full in with this today. During my practice session, I had my wife video a high percentage of the drills, to record the effort.

    First thing I did, was use this method on the head of a USPSA target at 28 yards. It was more vertical than horizontal. Here is the shooting:



    Here is the results:

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    Next I did draws to shooting three steel at 32-35 yards, where I work the horizontal trigger manipulation, so the shot breaks as I arrive on the target.



    And, on one target at the same distance, where the manipulation happens vertically.



    Then I shot upper A/B shots on USPSA targets at 12-15 yards.



    Here are the results, and what was notable is I felt no stress doing this shooting.



    Then I did one shot draws to the eight inch steel at 35 yards, and again no stress.



    Finally, a Bill type drill on the eight inch at 35 yards.



    What this method of working the Glock trigger does for me, is turn the negative of the Glock trigger into a positive, as I am running it just like a short travel DA revolver trigger, which as Jerry Miculek says, he works between the targets. This is also reminiscent of what Patrick Kelley has advocated with a carbine doing off hand pass shooting. Check it out and see how it works for you.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  2. #2
    Member feudist's Avatar
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    You're a friggin' beast.

    Just saying.

  3. #3
    Site Supporter MGW's Avatar
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    Subscribed to see where this goes. I don’t completely understand what you are describing but I’m not smart enough to know what questions to ask for clarification. I’ve decided to run a lot of double action only this fall in hopes that it will teach me something about running Glocks. I think I can visualize what you are describing and I think it’ll apply to a revolver too.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by GreggW View Post
    I don’t completely understand what you are describing but I’m not smart enough to know what questions to ask for clarification.
    That's pretty much where I am at as well. I feel like there is a lot for me to learn here.

  5. #5
    Leopard Printer Mr_White's Avatar
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    Lol I remember saying something more like "you are a great shooter and if you set yourself to working in earnest with the Glock trigger again it's going to be fine."

    And I was right, look at that shooting. Nice job!
    Technical excellence supports tactical preparedness
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by GreggW View Post
    Subscribed to see where this goes. I don’t completely understand what you are describing but I’m not smart enough to know what questions to ask for clarification. I’ve decided to run a lot of double action only this fall in hopes that it will teach me something about running Glocks. I think I can visualize what you are describing and I think it’ll apply to a revolver too.
    Quote Originally Posted by cornstalker View Post
    That's pretty much where I am at as well. I feel like there is a lot for me to learn here.
    Let me try to explain the difference. With a short, light trigger like a CZ, for example, I move the gun to the target, stop the gun, confirm alignment, and from a prepped trigger, then break the shot. With the Glock, that can be a problem, because the weight/length/character of the Glock trigger is not conducive to breaking the shot “right now” on low prob shots. The difference is the way I am now doing it, is during the transition horizontally or as the gun comes down vertically in recoil, I am simultaneously aiming and pressing the trigger, so the shot breaks as soon as the dot reaches the target. Think of it as a horizontal press out.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  7. #7
    Site Supporter taadski's Avatar
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    George,

    Just confirming you're referring to rolling through the travel of the Glock trigger while the gun is still in motion in recoil between shots on the same target (thus "vertically") and between targets laterally ("horizontally") such that the shot breaks just as the sight arrives/settles?

    I've long held that mileage shooting DA pistols aids in shooting the Glocks well. I spent about an hour today shooting a variety of steels and a plate rack with a Kahr P9 (I'm vetting it as a possible BUG) and had some very similar sensations to what you're describing as the pace quickened. Seemed like it required an interesting blend of being particularly aggressive on the trigger while also requiring quite a bit of extra visual patience. Good stuff.
    Last edited by taadski; 07-30-2018 at 10:41 PM. Reason: Typing while G was posting update

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by taadski View Post
    George,

    Just confirming you're referring to rolling through the travel of the Glock trigger while the gun is still in motion in recoil between shots on the same target (thus "vertically") and between targets laterally ("horizontally") such that the shot breaks just as the sight arrives/settles?

    I've long held that mileage shooting DA pistols aids in shooting the Glocks well. I spent about an hour today shooting a variety of steels and a plate rack with a Kahr P9 (I'm vetting it as a possible BUG) and had some very similar sensations to what you're describing as the pace quickened. Seemed like it required an interesting blend of being particularly aggressive on the trigger while also requiring quite a bit of extra visual patience. Good stuff.
    Yes, vertically and horizontally. In the case of the vertical, Garcia dot drills are a perfect example. With a DA/SA gun in SA, I would prep in recoil, but allow the sights to return to the Garcia dot, and try to keep the sights steady before and while initiating the press. Doing it that way with the Glock would involve gripping the crap out of the pistol, prepping super deeply, and being visually patient throughout the press, as the Glock trigger takes more weight and travel than a good SA trigger. With the method proposed here, I am initiating the trigger press as I see the dot coming down in recoil, continuing to refine my aiming throughout the travel of the dot (or sights), and timing the shot so it breaks as soon as the dot touches the target on the way down out of recoil. This eliminates having to hold the dot steady in one place, as I break the shot, which for me, makes this much easier to do. I didn’t mention it before, but this is especially helpful shooting with one hand, as holding the dot steady while breaking the shot is harder without the second hand for support.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  9. #9
    Leopard Printer Mr_White's Avatar
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    A few disparate but related thoughts in no particular order:

    This is the micro press out concept (I think you mentioned that already) that for me came out of my working with variations of the press out draw years ago, applied to all dimensions of gun movement and deceleration rather than just horizontally at the end of a draw.

    This is related to the DA trigger manipulation practice of 'keeping the trigger moving'.

    Two of the dry drills I teach in class (Sights, Meet Trigger 1 and 2) address this exact thing with regard to subsequent shots.
    Technical excellence supports tactical preparedness
    Lord of the Food Court
    http://www.gabewhitetraining.com

  10. #10
    Site Supporter Clobbersaurus's Avatar
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    Interesting thread GJM. I honestly did not give that much thought to the Glock trigger when I switched from my Elite II. I just took it out and shot it. Perhaps, given your results, I should more carefully consider it.

    I believe that lots of dry fire with a piece of plastic between the barrel hood and breech face have made me subconsciously prep the Glock trigger and I don’t think that my finger really leaves the trigger during fast shooting. I know it’s constantly moving and I don’t ever consciously prep it.

    I’m going to have to take some slow motion video the next time I go out and see exactly what I am doing, because I honestly don’t really know.

    Oh and damn your draw is nice. I used to curl my hand under my holster but I kept getting called for it in matches.
    "Next time somebody says USPSA or IPSC is all hosing, junk punch them." - Les Pepperoni
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