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Thread: Questionable piece on a new cartridge for the military

  1. #11
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    5.56 is going to be around a long time. The recent extension of Army infantry school and the inclusion of more live fire training, along with enablers like NODS and lasers will make a bigger difference than any change in caliber.

    The cuwrrent push for an intermediate caliber is based on 1) longer range engagements in Afghanistan and 2) the idea of pushing through body armor plates. 6.8 is inferior to 5.56, particularly the M855A1, for both of these tasks.

    Farnham needs to avoid the trap Col. Cooper fell into wherein he idealized the past and spent a lot of time re-fighting the boer war in his head. Re-fighting the last war is a pretty common trap.

    Barring something truly innovative, the idea of an intermediate sized, “AR 12.5” to go with the intermediate cartridge is worth a look. The Army is already using the new “small frame” DPMS GII AR-10s to experiment with intermediate cartridges like the .264 and .277 USA.

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom_Jones View Post
    That’s because it’s not an article but rather one of John’s ”quips” with pictures and ads inserted.

    http://defense-training.com/quips/
    Yep....it's a commercial.

    ''But wait!!! For a limited time, and for just the added cost of 'shipping and handling', we will double your order...''

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    5.56 is going to be around a long time. The recent extension of Army infantry school and the inclusion of more live fire training, along with enablers like NODS and lasers will make a bigger difference than any change in caliber.

    The cuwrrent push for an intermediate caliber is based on 1) longer range engagements in Afghanistan and 2) the idea of pushing through body armor plates. 6.8 is inferior to 5.56, particularly the M855A1, for both of these tasks.

    Farnham needs to avoid the trap Col. Cooper fell into wherein he idealized the past and spent a lot of time re-fighting the boer war in his head. Re-fighting the last war is a pretty common trap.

    Barring something truly innovative, the idea of an intermediate sized, “AR 12.5” to go with the intermediate cartridge is worth a look. The Army is already using the new “small frame” DPMS GII AR-10s to experiment with intermediate cartridges like the .264 and .277 USA.
    I think so, too, along with the Stoner system. For the foreseeable future, it looks like the 5.56, and some iteration of the AR platform, is 'it'.

    After the military determined that the 5.56 55-grain FMJ matched the lethality of the 7.62x39 122.5-grain FMJ, as evidenced by the logistic P[I/H] models (created by Sturdivan, Dziemian, Kokinakis & Sperrazza, et. al.) and the WDMET study and produced by the Biophysics Division of the US Army Ballistic Research Laboratory at Aberdeen Proving Grounds, it was pretty much a 'done deal'. I also like the idea of a fairly compact AR (maybe piston driven?) with an intermediate cartridge, but with the technology underlying cartridge/projectile development being pretty darned 'mature', it is hard to imagine any advancement in munitions that will suddenly take the intermediate cartridges to a greater level of performance above that which we have now.
    Last edited by the Schwartz; 08-12-2018 at 12:40 PM.

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    5.56 is going to be around a long time. The recent extension of Army infantry school and the inclusion of more live fire training, along with enablers like NODS and lasers will make a bigger difference than any change in caliber.

    The cuwrrent push for an intermediate caliber is based on 1) longer range engagements in Afghanistan and 2) the idea of pushing through body armor plates. 6.8 is inferior to 5.56, particularly the M855A1, for both of these tasks.

    Farnham needs to avoid the trap Col. Cooper fell into wherein he idealized the past and spent a lot of time re-fighting the boer war in his head. Re-fighting the last war is a pretty common trap.

    Barring something truly innovative, the idea of an intermediate sized, “AR 12.5” to go with the intermediate cartridge is worth a look. The Army is already using the new “small frame” DPMS GII AR-10s to experiment with intermediate cartridges like the .264 and .277 USA.
    Now that SOCOM and the DHS have gone for 6.5 Creedmoor I doubt those proprietary Army cartridges are going to get anywhere.

  5. #15
    I think the next big change will be to a caseless 6.5mm and will be a ways off. The army has already been working on that with the lsat lmg program. I think that will be paired with a .338 replacement for the 7.62 and m240.
    Last edited by VT1032; 08-13-2018 at 05:11 AM.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    5.56 is going to be around a long time.
    Rumors of its demise have been exaggerated since 6.8 SPC was going to be the new hotness.

    Quote Originally Posted by the Schwartz View Post
    it is hard to imagine any advancement in munitions that will suddenly take the intermediate cartridges to a greater level of performance above that which we have now.
    Right. New cartridges are just tweaking the system we have. It's not like the 19th century when the US Army went from Hall flintlocks to .30 Krag in 60 years. Also, some military projects look like they're doing something, but the main objective is continued employment.

    Quote Originally Posted by jellydonut View Post
    Now that SOCOM and the DHS have gone for 6.5 Creedmoor I doubt those proprietary Army cartridges are going to get anywhere.
    Units that can do their own testing and procurement will always have the newest stuff. It will take a long time for that to trickle down to all infantry units.
    "Gunfighting is a thinking man's game. So we might want to bring thinking back into it."-MDFA

  7. #17
    Like Tom said, it’s a quip from John’s series. If you read them all, they’re not fully developed essays, but more like just brief anecdotes about things he observes in the world, hears through his military and LE contacts, or sees in his classes. And he refers back to them in future quips.

    I think a number of you are giving him short shrift, not being fully mindful of his value to the industry. He IS the first, “traveling trainer.” When Cooper was setting up the API, John was already, “on the road,” teaching. He’s the oldest, living, private sector trainer STILL working today. His sources and intel are still on-point, and disregarding his ideas without appreciating the historical context from which he speaks is short-sighted.

    He trained on M14’s before he was shipped to Vietnam, where he was issued and used an M16. His first hand experience with the 556 led him to believe that the ammo issued at the time worked great on unarmored opponents, inside of 100 yards. Past that, it was lacking. He was the ONLY USMC LT from his class at Quantico to survive the war. He was injured by gunfire 3 times during his tour in theatre.

    When Cooper was waxing poetic about the past, riding about the desert on a 4 wheeler, occupying largely a figurehead role, John is still traveling and teaching 10-12 hour a day classes, NOT including the impromptu lectures he gives at breakfast and dinner. The comparison between the two is that they were contemporaries. John’s 72...he won’t be around much longer. Train with him while you can.


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  8. #18
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    As a currently serving Army NCO (albeit in the Reserve) I can't help but roll my eyes a bit at all of the 5.56 vs 7.62 vs 6.5 vs 6.8 sorts of discussions.

    The plain and simple reality is that a terrifyingly wide swath of our currently serving Soldiers, both active and Reserve/NG, can't manage a score higher than ~25 out of 40 on a 25M paper target qualification. Anyone with any business carrying a weapon should easily shoot 34+ out of 40 and anyone that's at a P-F level should be golden for 40 out of 40 with astounding consistency on the 25M paper qual.

    The same Soldiers that struggle will often re-fire their qualification multiple times before they pass on a reactive range (aka pop-ups) which requires you to hit targets between 50 and 300M in short periods of time. Damn few can shoot more than 30 out of 40. Most will fail to get the minimum 23 hits out of 40 their first attempt.

    To hell with the BS on whatever new flavor of weapon or changes are needed - the Army as a whole needs to realign its priorities and make marksmanship and skill with a weapon as heralded and celebrated again, instead of just coddling PT studs with high PT scores.
    Shooting Expert doesn't even do anything for one's promotion packet at higher levels. That's a goddamn travesty if you ask me.

    Before we start worrying about new weapons or ammo for the rank and file, the rank and file needs to learn how to *shoot* again. That is a widespread cultural problem in the Army these days and other services are affected as well. The various flavors of hi-speed speartip guys have all the flexibility they need on equipment, and they get the range time they need as well.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by JRB View Post
    As a currently serving Army NCO (albeit in the Reserve) I can't help but roll my eyes a bit at all of the 5.56 vs 7.62 vs 6.5 vs 6.8 sorts of discussions.

    The plain and simple reality is that a terrifyingly wide swath of our currently serving Soldiers, both active and Reserve/NG, can't manage a score higher than ~25 out of 40 on a 25M paper target qualification. Anyone with any business carrying a weapon should easily shoot 34+ out of 40 and anyone that's at a P-F level should be golden for 40 out of 40 with astounding consistency on the 25M paper qual.

    The same Soldiers that struggle will often re-fire their qualification multiple times before they pass on a reactive range (aka pop-ups) which requires you to hit targets between 50 and 300M in short periods of time. Damn few can shoot more than 30 out of 40. Most will fail to get the minimum 23 hits out of 40 their first attempt.

    To hell with the BS on whatever new flavor of weapon or changes are needed - the Army as a whole needs to realign its priorities and make marksmanship and skill with a weapon as heralded and celebrated again, instead of just coddling PT studs with high PT scores.
    Shooting Expert doesn't even do anything for one's promotion packet at higher levels. That's a goddamn travesty if you ask me.

    Before we start worrying about new weapons or ammo for the rank and file, the rank and file needs to learn how to *shoot* again. That is a widespread cultural problem in the Army these days and other services are affected as well. The various flavors of hi-speed speartip guys have all the flexibility they need on equipment, and they get the range time they need as well.
    Not sure how much the reserves have seen it but the army is making progress here. The updated TCs are significantly better and the master marksmanship trainer course seems pretty good. My division re-opened it’s two week marksmanship course after getting new instructors certified so I think we’re on the right track, but of course filtering all of that down to the majority of dudes on the line is going to take a very long time.


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  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    Farnham needs to avoid the trap Col. Cooper fell into wherein he idealized the past and spent a lot of time re-fighting the boer war in his head. Re-fighting the last war is a pretty common trap.
    I seem to remember Col. Cooper complained in one of his writings about the military trying to adopt/develop a 6.8 cartridge when people have been shooting perfectly good 7mm cartridges for decades.

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