LAPD Hostage Killing 06/16/2018

[Sherman A. House DDS]

I think there is an argument for repeated commands that falls well short of being caught in a loop. As referenced, we want to establish that we have issued the commands for witnesses and recording devices. More importantly, however, suspects may have some degree of auditory exclusion or simply not hear or understand us due to environmental conditions, poor hearing, or language barriers. (Of course, the way to make anyone understand English is to keep repeating what was said louder.)

I don't think there is an absolute number of commands that should be mandated (which would be pretty foolish) and I think if the suspect has not obeyed the first several commands, he or she is unlikely to obey the next ten or twenty. I also think there are times to take action without warning or after a single command.

On one occasion, on of my shift mates was dealing with a disruptive and annoying handcuffed prisoner who was, however, not resistive or assaultive. When he told the prisoner to "Quiet down! I'm not going to tell you again!", I immediately commented "Yes, you are." The officer considere that for a moment and then remarked "Yeah, you're right, Sarge. I guess I am."

John Murphy says something in his classes to the effect of, “Nobody in the history of calming down has actually ever calmed down when someone tells them, repeatedly, to CALM DOWN!” That’s pretty true, and the same could go for the myriad of LE commands we give.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jnc36rcpd]

True. I agree that calmer commands generally work better in most cases. You're more understandable and appear, to both the bad guy and the public, to be in command. You also can amp up the aggressiveness as needed.

[John Hearne]

"Stuck in a loop" makes a lot of sense by way of explanation. I'd also offer that it may be an inability to develop any other option. If the officer's subconscious evaluates the shooting problem and contrasts it with the officers known skills, it may reach the conclusion - we can't do this. In light of no shooting option, or anything else, the subconscious just leaves the verbal response running.

[blues]

"Stuck in a loop" makes a lot of sense by way of explanation. I'd also offer that it may be an inability to develop any other option. If the officer's subconscious evaluates the shooting problem and contrasts it with the officers known skills, it may reach the conclusion - we can't do this. In light of no shooting option, or anything else, the subconscious just leaves the verbal response running.

Interesting. Incorporating fear of the consequences into that loop would seem to fit as well.

[John Hearne]

Interesting. Incorporating fear of the consequences into that loop would seem to fit as well.

At the risk of sounding utterly conceited, anyone with a serious interests in these topics really needs to hear my 8 hour talk. It's the most current research as well as a pretty solid model for how the mind works. It sounds long but, the presentation moves along fast enough to keep you engaged.

If you are a "why" person, you will love it. If you aren't, not so much. Some sick people have sat for multiple sessions without significant brain damage.

[Wayne Dobbs]

At the risk of sounding utterly conceited, anyone with a serious interests in these topics really needs to hear my 8 hour talk. It's the most current research as well as a pretty solid model for how the mind works. It sounds long but, the presentation moves along fast enough to keep you engaged.

If you are a "why" person, you will love it. If you aren't, not so much. Some sick people have sat for multiple sessions without significant brain damage.

And I'm one of the sick ones. The presentation is full of excellent and useful information. If you carry a gun or teach folks who do, you must hear John's presentation.

[Rex G]

No audio or video recording exists, to remind me how many commands I issued, in June 1993. I do not remember saying anything, though I remember the visual part well enough. One colleague’s official statement reported that I said “BACK OFF” and “DROP THE KNIFE,” before the shot, with no indication I repeated anything. I do remember using “BACK OFF” on previous occasions, so that part adds up.

I will emphasize, I did not recall saying anything to the actor. I wonder if some officers are consciously unaware that they have issued the commands, and therefore repeat them? I do believe it would be fixable, with training, which is why I am bringing it up.

Edited to add: I removed some details from my original version of this post. Even though it was been over 25 years, I decided I would rather not present a newer, and therefore, more-easily-searchable, narrative.

[BehindBlueI's]

No audio or video recording exists, to remind me how many commands I issued, in June 1993. I do not remember saying anything...

I had a similar incident, although audio did exist. I would have went to IA and testified I said nothing if I hadn't listened to my own audio first. Our conscious brain is busy with lots of other things, so the subconscious runs the trained response for other tasks that aren't deemed as critical to survival. In another incident that culminated in a shooting I did not give any commands and did so purposefully. I could hear other officers giving commands but couldn't fully process them due to auditory exclusion, made the decision to not give any commands in case mine conflicted with theirs.

[LtDave]

In my one and only shooting, I heard nothing that came over the police radio once the shooting started. I was shocked how much radio traffic there had been and I was totally unaware of it. My Sergeant was also on scene throughout the whole incident and it was if he disappeared, so focused on the bad guy I was.

[BehindBlueI's]

In my one and only shooting, I heard nothing that came over the police radio once the shooting started. I was shocked how much radio traffic there had been and I was totally unaware of it. My Sergeant was also on scene throughout the whole incident and it was if he disappeared, so focused on the bad guy I was.

I've mentioned before that I was so focused on the guy I had just shot that when an officer I had known for years, on and off duty, tugged on the shoulder of my armor and I looked at him but did not recognize him. I let him move me a few feet to the side because I saw the uniform and accepted he was a good guy. I didn't know it was him who'd moved me until several days later when he stopped by my house to check on me.