LAPD Hostage Killing 06/16/2018

[Wayne Dobbs]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrBoIWNnbhU

So here we have a situation that resulted in killing a genuine hostage. Using deadly force was completely justified, but you have to wonder that if there was time to get a beanbag shotgun out, why wouldn't somebody get a patrol rifle out instead of pistols? Next, you see the effects of what I've called "contagion fire" for years in firearms training and that you can train out (or at least show the effort). One fired and they all fired and loosed about 18 rounds, killing the turd and the hostage. This one will be a game changer for sure and not likely in a positive way.

[HCountyGuy]

This isn’t likely to help with some of the stupid things going on in CA regarding changing UOF guidelines.

I wondered the same thing about getting a rifle in to play in this incident when I viewed it. Didn’t want to MMQB it too hard but there were some serious screw-ups that could’ve been avoided with a little bit of sense added in to the equation.

[KeeFus]

Why didn't the female leave instead of just standing there, in essence lending herself to become a hostage?

Not trying to play the blame game but if I saw a suspect with a knife and a chair approaching police and they (the police) were armed with various weapons that were pointed in my direction, I'd un-ass the area. Once the bean-bag rounds were fired and had little effect the suspect started backing up and that's when he took her hostage.

At any rate, a lot to learn from in regards to training.

[TCinVA]

Why didn't the female leave instead of just standing there, in essence lending herself to become a hostage?

Not trying to play the blame game but if I saw a suspect with a knife and a chair approaching police and they (the police) were armed with various weapons that were pointed in my direction, I'd un-ass the area. Once the bean-bag rounds were fired and had little effect the suspect started backing up and that's when he took her hostage.

At any rate, a lot to learn from in regards to training.

People frequently do dumb shit in the midst of a very dangerous situation. Playing looky-loo when the police show up is one of the common ones.

I remember being in a college class one time when a member of the local SWAT team showed up at the door and told us all we had to leave immediately. I grabbed my shit and started moving...everyone else sat there asking what was going on. The instructor, bless her pea-pickin' heart, actually argued with the dude. I understood what it meant when dudes with body armor and machine guns showed up and were breathlessly telling you to get the fuck out.

Also note that she had a walker. Could she have done more to put herself out of the danger zone? Sure...but this is an older woman who apparently has mobility issues.

The officers were handed a shit sandwich on this one...but I have to think that more aggressive action when a dude with a knife is moving in the direction of an innocent with a walker who is backed against a wall would have been the appropriate call.

Then again, society as a whole doesn't give a shit about teaching officers the appropriate times to escalate force in the interest of preventing an outcome like this, so...

Ultimately the responsibility lies in the hands of the person pulling the trigger whether they've been trained to the level of that awesome responsibility or not. Most police departments are simply not going to train their personnel up to the level necessary to properly deal with the kinds of problems they are going to be asked to solve. Ultimately it's up to the officers themselves to recognize this and do something about it.

It shouldn't be that way, of course, but it is that way.

Police, of course, are not unique in this. Many employers do not adequately train or prepare their employees to handle the problems that come with the job and it's on the employee themselves to acquire the necessary skills on their own time. Policing just carries with it dire life-altering consequences for that deficiency.

[KeeFus]

Police, of course, are not unique in this. Many employers do not adequately train or prepare their employees to handle the problems that come with the job and it's on the employee themselves to acquire the necessary skills on their own time. Policing just carries with it dire life-altering consequences for that deficiency.

^^^^QFT!

[TCinVA]

This is a brilliant argument for a policy that allows deploying a long gun when the officers are sent to a call on armed people in close proximity to others of the public.

The pistol is a reactive weapon...the gun you reach for when you didn't reasonably suspect there was going to be a lethal threat.

When you know going in that there's a dude with a lethal weapon in proximity to others he is threatening, a long gun makes all kinds of sense.

In this instance an officer armed with a good shotgun loaded with Federal Flight Control and some decent training could have pretty easily peeled that dude off of the hostage and effectively neutralized him with one shot.

[blues]

A patrol rifle is what immediately came to mind. (Perhaps loaded with something akin to the Hornady TAP Urban round for less barrier penetration.)

[feudist]

A patrol rifle is what immediately came to mind. (Perhaps loaded with something akin to the Hornady TAP Urban round for less barrier penetration.)

And still, in 2018, the majority of Patrol officers still don't have access. We're lucky to have 1 or 2 on shift.

[blues]

And still, in 2018, the majority of Patrol officers still don't have access. We're lucky to have 1 or 2 on shift.

I don't know if that's an issue with the department involved in the current circumstance...but clearly that is an issue for other departments and agencies. Seems very backward thinking in today's environment.

[andre3k]

We just had an FBI regional SWAT team kill the hostage during a rescue at a stash house of illegals. Made the local news for a day or two and it wasn't even a blip on the national news.