Where’s the line in the sand?

[HCountyGuy]

This is a bit of a rambling rant, so I apologize in advance.

Ever since the election of Trump it seems that the political divide in this country is greater than ever and far more prone to incite violence. It’s a fairly regular occurrence to see or hear about someone wearing a “Make America Great Again” becoming the victim of some level of assault by those who believe Trump and his supporters to be a bigoted, racist homophobes (among numerous other things).

Now the “sensible” course of action would be just don’t wear the hat and you’ll avoid problems. My question is why should someone have to be afraid to wear one and where does that slippery slope end? Today it’s don’t wear a MAGA hat, what’s tomorrow? Don’t not wear a rainbow shirt lest you be deemed a homophobe and be set upon by a social justice mob? Where’s the tolerance the one side claims to have for differing opinions? Or is that the name of the blade they aim to impale you with for not agreeing with their vision of a great “inclusive” nation? Fascism is alive and well, ironically carried out by those who claim to stand against it.

We keep kowtowing to their sensitivities such as not to provoke a violent response. This sort of violence against others for their political alignment is domestic terrorism at its very definition. My question is, at what point do we start pushing back? Or are we too far down the rabbit-hole and at best we’re just delaying the inevitable by drawing a line in the sand and holding fast?

[blues]

I take the same position on that hat, (which I do not own), and an NRA hat, (which I do), or a hat for the Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Fund, (which I also do), or other organization I belong to.

I don't have bumper stickers on my truck advertising a political ideology or for the 2A as I don't care to have my vehicle vandalized.

It should be easiest for us. We're concealed carriers. We don't want or need people to know our allegiances unless we choose to.

Choose to when it makes the most sense to do so.

My two cents. Hope it's worth the read.

[JRB]

This is a bit of a rambling rant, so I apologize in advance.

Ever since the election of Trump it seems that the political divide in this country is greater than ever and far more prone to incite violence. It’s a fairly regular occurrence to see or hear about someone wearing a “Make America Great Again” becoming the victim of some level of assault by those who believe Trump and his supporters to be a bigoted, racist homophobes (among numerous other things).

Now the “sensible” course of action would be just don’t wear the hat and you’ll avoid problems. My question is why should someone have to be afraid to wear one and where does that slippery slope end? Today it’s don’t wear a MAGA hat, what’s tomorrow? Don’t not wear a rainbow shirt lest you be deemed a homophobe and be set upon by a social justice mob? Where’s the tolerance the one side claims to have for differing opinions? Or is that the name of the blade they aim to impale you with for not agreeing with their vision of a great “inclusive” nation? Fascism is alive and well, ironically carried out by those who claim to stand against it.

We keep kowtowing to their sensitivities such as not to provoke a violent response. This sort of violence against others for their political alignment is domestic terrorism at its very definition. My question is, at what point do we start pushing back? Or are we too far down the rabbit-hole and at best we’re just delaying the inevitable by drawing a line in the sand and holding fast?

We're at that phase where we need like minded allies, and must take upon ourselves the exhausting duty of being subdued, professional, rational, calm, and soft in the face of the exact opposite.

We must win folks to our side with reason and rational discourse. Both of which must be delivered with patience and calm over the long haul, capitalizing (calmly) on the hypocrisy of the opposition whenever possible to help convince others to do the same.
Each adult you convince to vote in line with 2A values is one less vote that gets cancelled out by yours, or mine.

It's exhausting. It's vexing in the extreme to face venomous hatred and that seething, foamy rage they level at our very existence, and reply with calmness and respect they don't deserve.

But once we start yelling, screaming, otherwise descending to their level - the game is lost. Nobody in the middle or on the opposition is convinced by doing so.

Once we descend to that level, we play into their hands and their bullshit hateful ignorant assumption that we're all violent racist sexist assholes gets an episode of confirmation bias they don't deserve.


Research the argument and have a factually valid, empirical answer for each of their logical fallacies. Deliver it cleanly and with understanding and kindness, not matter-of-fact, snarky, 'you're an idiot' kinds of tones and inflections.
Speak well and explain it all piece by piece, issue by issue if you must. Have patience longer than their rage, and that's a considerable thing these days.

If reason cannot win, disengage gracefully. Let any bystanders or witnesses to the exchange see that you were clearly the more rational, calm, mature adult and took the matter seriously where the opposition was loud, immature, and spiteful.
If you cannot disengage gracefully, disengage with purpose and facts. Let witnesses be able to verify your findings clearly and from authoritative sources (e.g. FBI crime stats)


Because if we 'draw a line in the sand' and become just as violent and spiteful in response, the media is not on our side and we'll simply lose the game.

In short, we can still turn this around with sound reasoning and the ballot box. No need to reach for the bullet box just yet, and I hope and pray like hell that we'll never get to that point.

[HCountyGuy]

I certainly appreciate your input and view, and can agree to an extent. This isn’t just about carrying a concealed weapon though (yet). We may have a hands-off view as some of these matters don’t yet concern our passions, but I think it’ll creep there eventually.

Martin Niemöller has a pretty famous paragraph pertaining to this:

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

[Darth_Uno]

I wear what I want when I want, and if you don't like it that's too damn bad for you. OTOH, I usually avoid "gun" shirts, which I have plenty of, just to avoid people suspecting I carry.

[JTQ]

It's a good question, and I think you should be able to wear whatever you want without fear of being attacked. However, like blues, I try not to bring attention to myself and have no bumper stickers on any of my cars, and the only logo gear I wear is some Florida State stuff since my kids are graduates, and NW Florida is a pretty safe place for FSU gear, though there are an awful lot of LSU, Alabama, Auburn, and Florida fans here.

I don't want to end up like the guy who shot the dude at the convenience store. Whether he was in the right or wrong, he is pretty much getting lynched even on the gun web sites. I can envision folks getting whacked for wearing NRA or MAGA or any number of other conservative gear (election signs in your yard), and then using some other forces like a gun, or dog, etc., to defend themselves and ending up in jail, or just getting buried with legal fees defending your actions.

I'm just going to continue in my nondescript house, in my nondescript car, wearing my nondescript clothes, and trying to stay out of trouble.

[HCountyGuy]

We're at that phase where we need like minded allies, and must take upon ourselves the exhausting duty of being subdued, professional, rational, calm, and soft in the face of the exact opposite.

We must win folks to our side with reason and rational discourse. Both of which must be delivered with patience and calm over the long haul, capitalizing (calmly) on the hypocrisy of the opposition whenever possible to help convince others to do the same.
Each adult you convince to vote in line with 2A values is one less vote that gets cancelled out by yours, or mine.

It's exhausting. It's vexing in the extreme to face venomous hatred and that seething, foamy rage they level at our very existence, and reply with calmness and respect they don't deserve.

But once we start yelling, screaming, otherwise descending to their level - the game is lost. Nobody in the middle or on the opposition is convinced by doing so.

Once we descend to that level, we play into their hands and their bullshit hateful ignorant assumption that we're all violent racist sexist assholes gets an episode of confirmation bias they don't deserve.


Research the argument and have a factually valid, empirical answer for each of their logical fallacies. Deliver it cleanly and with understanding and kindness, not matter-of-fact, snarky, 'you're an idiot' kinds of tones and inflections.
Speak well and explain it all piece by piece, issue by issue if you must. Have patience longer than their rage, and that's a considerable thing these days.

If reason cannot win, disengage gracefully. Let any bystanders or witnesses to the exchange see that you were clearly the more rational, calm, mature adult and took the matter seriously where the opposition was loud, immature, and spiteful.
If you cannot disengage gracefully, disengage with purpose and facts. Let witnesses be able to verify your findings clearly and from authoritative sources (e.g. FBI crime stats)


Because if we 'draw a line in the sand' and become just as violent and spiteful in response, the media is not on our side and we'll simply lose the game.

In short, we can still turn this around with sound reasoning and the ballot box. No need to reach for the bullet box just yet, and I hope and pray like hell that we'll never get to that point.

I don’t disagree with your suggested approach.

The problem though is that we’re seeing increasing violence even in the face of a well-articulated and factually-based response, when they even care to hear the other side of the argument to begin with. Lately though it seems some folks just go straight to physical confrontation right out of the gate. More and more it seems we’re being left with violence as our only option (read self-defense) because we’re monsters just by our political affiliation.

I have hope things can be turned around, as I was extraordinarily pessimistic that HRC was going to win in 2016. I was relieved to be wrong and hoped things might get squared away but the “losers” so to speak aren’t taking it well and are taking it out on their perceived enemies.

[RevolverRob]

"Where should society draw a line in the sand, when it comes to apparel and opinions?"

For instance, should a woman be afraid to wear a cleavage showing outfit or short skirt in public? The answer is obvious - of course not. And yet both a woman in a short skirt and a man in a MAGA hat may both be victims of violence.

What we need to do is equip each citizen of our society with the ability and willingness to defend themselves against violent actors. We teach everyone to stand up and defend themselves. And then, we let the chips fall where they may, when people come to do violence against the innocent. We draw the line at not allowing our judicial and legislative branches prosecute the innocent. We draw the line at not allowing people who are afraid, dictate policy. We draw the line at not calling for more legislation to protect every person with a cop. Be responsible for yourself and stand up against the violent bullies.

In short - stack up the bodies when people come to beat you up for your political beliefs or clothing choices and folks will leave it alone right quick.

History has shown us that stacking bodies high and deep will repel the attackers...

[GardoneVT]

This is a bit of a rambling rant, so I apologize in advance.

Ever since the election of Trump it seems that the political divide in this country is greater than ever and far more prone to incite violence. It’s a fairly regular occurrence to see or hear about someone wearing a “Make America Great Again” becoming the victim of some level of assault by those who believe Trump and his supporters to be a bigoted, racist homophobes (among numerous other things).

Now the “sensible” course of action would be just don’t wear the hat and you’ll avoid problems. My question is why should someone have to be afraid to wear one and where does that slippery slope end? Today it’s don’t wear a MAGA hat, what’s tomorrow? Don’t not wear a rainbow shirt lest you be deemed a homophobe and be set upon by a social justice mob? Where’s the tolerance the one side claims to have for differing opinions? Or is that the name of the blade they aim to impale you with for not agreeing with their vision of a great “inclusive” nation? Fascism is alive and well, ironically carried out by those who claim to stand against it.

We keep kowtowing to their sensitivities such as not to provoke a violent response. This sort of violence against others for their political alignment is domestic terrorism at its very definition. My question is, at what point do we start pushing back? Or are we too far down the rabbit-hole and at best we’re just delaying the inevitable by drawing a line in the sand and holding fast?

There are always tribal identities which conflict with others, irrespective of politics. Curious how your insurance company handles vandalism? Drive through SoCal with an NRA sticker’d vehicle. Want the same effect in rural Mississippi? Use a pro-LGBT sticker instead.

Different people have different definitions of “good group” and “bad group”. You won’t change those social mores by assuming the risk of violating them.

[HCountyGuy]

"Where should society draw a line in the sand, when it comes to apparel and opinions?"

For instance, should a woman be afraid to wear a cleavage showing outfit or short skirt in public? The answer is obvious - of course not. And yet both a woman in a short skirt and a man in a MAGA hat may both be victims of violence.

What we need to do is equip each citizen of our society with the ability and willingness to defend themselves against violent actors. We teach everyone to stand up and defend themselves. And then, we let the chips fall where they may, when people come to do violence against the innocent. We draw the line at not allowing our judicial and legislative branches prosecute the innocent. We draw the line at not allowing people who are afraid, dictate policy. We draw the line at not calling for more legislation to protect every person with a cop. Be responsible for yourself and stand up against the violent bullies.

In short - stack up the bodies when people come to beat you up for your political beliefs or clothing choices and folks will leave it alone right quick.

History has shown us that stacking bodies high and deep will repel the attackers...

That’s poetic and all, but unfortunately a bit removed from our current realities.

We’ve watched true victims get buried in the legal system for daring to defend themselves. If not sent to prison they’re battling steep legal fees having to defend themselves from the vulturous family of the one who assaulted them.

Now the other side almost plays off of that knowledge that even if we beat the rap, we might go bankrupt. They know they can back us in to a corner with violence and then cry foul when their victim fights back. It’s truly abhorrent.