Out of curiosity - training question

[HCM]

IIRC, UTM for man marking and Simunition for blanks.

The UTM blanks don't fit them.

I don't remember any Speer ammo, unless Speer manufactures UTM's ammo lines....

The patent on the original simmunition marking cartridges expired a few years ago and Speer released a line of marking cartridges compatible with existing simmunition guns/conversions called Speer “Force On Force” which are a great improvement over the original simmunition rounds.

UTM pistol marking rounds are great. UTM rifle marking rounds are the Devil. Those suckers hurt.

[KeeFus]

IIRC, UTM for man marking and Simunition for blanks.

The UTM blanks don't fit them.

I don't remember any Speer ammo, unless Speer manufactures UTM's ammo lines....

Speer is on NC state contract...$250ish for a 500 case of marking cartridges. From what I’m told, SIMS is more expensive. UTM price is coming in today (I hope).

[psalms144.1]

For my money, it would be decision making and tactics through scenario based FOF, and tactical trauma/medical treatment. Not sure which would be a higher priority - as a "gun guy" I'm inclined to think the latter, but I'm betting most LEOs encounter more medical issues than "gunfighting" issues on a daily basis.

[KeeFus]

Speer is on NC state contract...$250ish for a 500 case of marking cartridges. From what I’m told, SIMS is more expensive. UTM price is coming in today (I hope).

UTM marking cartridges are $485.00/1000. Anyone prefer these over Speer?

Glock FOF pistols are $454.00. Id rather have the entire pistol over a SIMS conversion.

From what I'm reading the UTM ammo can not be used in the G17T pistols. Is that correct?

[HCM]

UTM marking cartridges are $485.00/1000. Anyone prefer these over Speer?

Glock FOF pistols are $454.00. Id rather have the entire pistol over a SIMS conversion.

From what I'm reading the UTM ammo can not be used in the G17T pistols. Is that correct?

UTM and SIMS/FOF are not compatible/interchangeable.

IME UTM works the best, followed by FOF ammo in SIMS guns/conversions.

[Coyotesfan97]

Case law and scene management. Especially among rookies. Being assertive in clearing a crime scene, separating witnesses, maintaining a perimeter, preserving evidence, etc.

Getting evidence is great, making case law about how you did it after the suppression is not. And it's a moving target. Case law evolves continuously. Just look at warrantless searches of cell phones. Not just a rookie problem, especially with technology "searches".

I think my dept does a great job on the firearms, use of force, scenario training, etc. We've got an *excellent* outdoor range facility and tac bays. If I were Chief for a Day (likely longer than my real tenure would be) I'd like to see more Simunition stuff with real pain feedback again, and a return of something like FATS. I'm sure technology has advanced and made whatever the new simulation bays even more betterer.

I hate to say it but along with needing what BBI stated in the first paragraph id have to say report writing/documenting use of force. I go to lots of major cases and often I have to document UoF. My supplements are often five pages in Word and are invariably 2-3 times longer then the primary patrol Officer’s report. We (K9) rely on Graham v Connor to justify/document force ie dog bites. It carries over to other types of UoF.

I think I’m a pretty good report writer. One of the guys I work with is phenomenal. He’d be a great instructor for this class. I’d make it two hours and it’d be all GvC UoF report writing.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Thanks to everyone who has jumped in. Now I can start wading through.

Please, keep the thoughts, ideas coming.

[TGS]

UTM marking cartridges are $485.00/1000. Anyone prefer these over Speer?

Glock FOF pistols are $454.00. Id rather have the entire pistol over a SIMS conversion.

From what I'm reading the UTM ammo can not be used in the G17T pistols. Is that correct?

In our Glock 19T pistols, the UTM man-marking is used for force-on-force and structure clearing classes. The UTM blanks didn't fit....we have them left over from the previously used UTM-converted SIGs. We had to use Simunitions branded blanks for our Glock T pistols (they were brass case with a blue/purple-ish "bullet").

UTM has a huge ammunition line, and I'm guessing Glock (or UTM) can provide you with what product codes are/are not compatible.

[Erick Gelhaus]

While I agree with the need for improvement noted in the above areas referenced by our LE compatriots, I think Angus was asking about skills training NOT currently part of regular LE curriculum. If so, that's a big question. Ten years ago I would have said TCCC training focused on LE First Responders...but that training is available many places now. Correct me if I'm wrong, Angus...but you seem to be asking what NEW skills we in LE need to develop?

I'm not opposed to considering what we need to do better, but some of it is decades in the making. However, my focus is closer to your thoughts - what new training avenues do we need to explore, develop, push-out.

[HCM]

I hate to say it but along with needing what BBI stated in the first paragraph id have to say report writing/documenting use of force. I go to lots of major cases and often I have to document UoF. My supplements are often five pages in Word and are invariably 2-3 times longer then the primary patrol Officer’s report. We (K9) rely on Graham v Connor to justify/document force ie dog bites. It carries over to other types of UoF.

I think I’m a pretty good report writer. One of the guys I work with is phenomenal. He’d be a great instructor for this class. I’d make it two hours and it’d be all GvC UoF report writing.

What FLETC is doing in mixed basic classes and their UOF instructor class(highly recommend BTW) is a hybrid - putting students through a scenario with UOF, be it a SIMS shoot, foam baton, inert spray etc and then making you write a UOF report on in it detailing the articulable facts.