Need the Hive Mind

[John Hearne]

Their words, not mine - let's not dicker about words

I'm pulling from the scientific literature which has its own vocabulary, going back to the early part of the 20th Century.

If it makes you feel better, one may have mastered a skill but they may not be an expert in it.

[Clobbersaurus]

This is an interesting thread. I believe there was a chart posted by @Mr_White some time ago that tried to compare different shooting tests to USPSA/IDPA classifications. It was interesting, but I think it is very difficult to compare static shooting tests to the practical shooting sports.

At the highest levels of the shooting sports, the skills needed go beyond just static shooting ability. I have seen GM level IPSC shooters who could not do a sub 7 second FAST and I have seen guys who can blaze the FAST not qualify as A in USPSA/IPSC.

My take; if you can shoot a sub 4 second FAST you are an expert at the skills that are required to shoot the FAST. If you are a GM in USPA/IPSC, you are an expert at the skills required to excel at that discipline. The skills are not 100% transferable.

Again, I think very hard to quantify skill levels across different shooting disciplines, but it’s a worthwhile and interesting exercise to try.

[scjbash]

This thread had a similar discussion and the chart Gabe posted.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....-GM&styleid=17

[Mr_White]

Lemme see if I can find that chart and repost it here.

[Mr_White]

So...to the point of the thread, and John I know you don't want it to be about semantics and there are apparently established definitions of these words to at least some extent. I think of expert and mastery as the opposite of what they are saying.

To me (admittedly subjective and maybe I'm backwards), first of all the words are nearly interchangeable.

Second, I think of an expert as 'very good' - in this area of study we are largely talking mechanical skills. I think of a master as 'great'.

The difference between the two, to me, relates largely to practical application under a broader variety of circumstances. When I think of these two terms, that's what the master has that the expert doesn't as much. They both have excellent mechanical skills. The master has the breadth of experience and seasoning in application (I mean that broadly, whether real life, competition, or whatever) that allows them to succeed in varied and on demand circumstances more than the expert.

Just my take, and truly just about what those words mean to me personally.

[Mr_White]

The chart in the most complete variation I have. Important to note that the base came from Midwest Marksman, whoever that is, and lots of people here gave input on the relative placement of things. Lots of adjustments could be argued to the current configuration, it's inexact, and doesn't have to mean much. All that said, I like it, and it's the best attempt I personally know of at comparing these disparate skill levels, drills, tests, professional standards, etc.

[Clobbersaurus]

I didn’t take this to be a words explanation thread, at least that is not what John posted in his first post.

He asked what does mastery and expertise with a pistol look like and what drills, tests, define those words. The chart you, and looking at that old thread, John, posted tried to define that I believe.

USPSA/IPSC has already tried to define those terms, and I think they do a pretty good job. GM level shooters are experts in every sense of the definition of “expert pistol shooter”. It’s the best pistol shooting classification system there is, IMO.

[Mr_White]

I didn’t take this to be a words explanation thread, at least that is not what John posted in his first post.

He asked what does mastery and expertise with a pistol look like and what drills, tests, define those words. The chart you, and looking at that old thread, John, posted tried to define that I believe.

USPSA/IPSC has already tried to define those terms, and I think they do a pretty good job. GM level shooters are experts in every sense of the definition of “expert pistol shooter”. It’s the best pistol shooting classification system there is, IMO.

Fair enough. I guess taking that into account, and rephrasing what I said, I think the drill and test performance look essentially the same between experts and masters. No discernible difference there to me, though sure, there are more and less skilled examples within that pool (sub 4.5 FAST vs sub 4 vs a champion that might hit a sub 3 on rare occasions.) I think if you make them face a 32 round field course, or maybe have a gun battle (yeah I know big difference there, but successful practical application is my point) I think that's where the difference will be found and the master is better.

Since John brought up my performance pins, I personally would call Dark highly competent, but neither expert nor master. I think Light and Turbo can both be won by experts. Many of both of those winners are masters to me as well. But mastery by my definition and thinking isn't actually a required element because my pins are awarded from narrow stand and shoot drills, not complex or free form courses of fire or field application of the handgun. I can think of more than one Light Pin winner who I ABSOLUTELY would consider a master based on their developed ability to apply their excellent skills well when it counts. They certainly did in the non scored, more complex drills in class, and I know they have in a lot worse circumstances than that.

[Mr_White]

Rereading John's original post, I can see my idea isn't what he was looking for. Nevertheless, it's my answer. From the pure technical standpoint, the two terms are essentially indistinguishable for me

[Clobbersaurus]

Rereading John's original post, I can see my idea isn't what he was looking for. Nevertheless, it's my answer. From the pure technical standpoint, the two terms are essentially indistinguishable for me

I would defer to your judgement on that as you have so much practical observation of technical shooting skill under pressure in your class environment. I don’t care what anyone says; having shot under the pressure of trying to earn a FAST coin, it is a substantial amount of pressure. As much as I have felt at any stage in any match.

Maybe part of having true expertise is the ability to manage that pressure?

This is all good discussion. Great thread!