How good is good enough?

[jmjames]

Another side of "good enough" is reliability vs. accuracy.

I've been struggling to figure out if I am no good or if it's the gun, so today I ran through three guns... same ammo, same range, 2 15 shot strings. In both strings, a gun that some folks (like Todd) would regard as "not reliable" blew the other away on accuracy (3" group vs. 5" and 6" at 5 yards), but the other two are pistols with a reputation for reliability.

So my questions are this:

1. Is the better trainability of the "not reliable" gun (after all, I *know* that it's me, not the gun, when shots land in the wrong spot) going to allow me to become a much better shooter compared to guns that I can't judge why a shot went bad?

2. In a self defense scenario, is the better accuracy going to make a bigger difference than the reliability concerns?

For the record, the "not reliable" gun shooting like a laser was a Jericho Compact (a CZ clone, aka "Baby Desert Eagle") and the other two were a Glock 17 and a H&K P30. I'm *not* an experienced shooter, so it is important to me that every round I fire in practice help to make me a better shooter. But as many others in this thread have said, it's pretty hard to improve when you cannot be sure that bad shots are caused by the gun.

J.Ja

[JHC]

I commented on your other thread. You've got one of the very finest combat pistols at any price. Just keep training.

Ken Hackathorn in our Dec class really emphasized that our first priority is to master self defense from 10 yards and closer; fast, with movement, accurately, with strong hand only skills too and the ability to reload quickly (most likely cause for a "stoppage"). Then expand outward from there.

[MDS]

In both strings, a gun that some folks (like Todd) would regard as "not reliable" blew the other away on accuracy (3" group vs. 5" and 6" at 5 yards), but the other two are pistols with a reputation for reliability.

As a fellow n00b, I won't pretend to know all the answers. FWIW, though, I'll say something about your question #1. I see the "accuracy" situation a little differently than how you capture it. When I shoot one gun more accurately than another, (assuming neither gun has horrible problems,) then I first assume that the gun I shoot better is just masking my shooting problems. As a degenerate example, I do a lot of accuracy work with my 617 revolver, at 15+ yds. I shoot a lot more accurately in single action mode than in double action mode. The gun is obviously no less accurate in DA, it's just that SA masks a lot of imperfections in my trigger skills... so, I gave myself the challenge to shoot a lot of DA with that gun, and the difference between DA and SA groups has been diminishing. Most importantly, the size of both groups has also been diminishing.

Similarly in your scenario, I would assume that the CZ clone is masking imperfections - I'm fairly certain that all three guns are capable of 2" groups at 5yd, and I suspect that practicing a lot with the other guns will teach you more about trigger control. Again, not trying to answer your questions or lead you down a certain path, just sharing my own thought process, FWIW...

[DocGKR]

jmjames--How much training have our received?

Generally, the more training and experience a shooter has, the better they are able to determine when the error is their's vs. a problem with the firearm.

Since 99.9% of the 9 mm Glocks and HK's I've seen can shoot 5" or better groups at 25 yds, if you are unable to do so, the chances are it is you rather than a problem with the pistol. One good way to tell is to have an experienced shooter fire your pistol and see how it does in their hands--if good, then you know there is nothing wrong with the firearm.

The vast majority of people are better off getting additional training from a qualified instructor, rather than another firearm.

FWIW, I'd NEVER carry a Jericho over a 9mm Glock or HK...

[JHC]

I do a lot of accuracy work with my 617 revolver, at 15+ yds. ...

Purely brilliant method!

[jmjames]

jmjames--How much training have our received?

Generally, the more training and experience a shooter has, the better they are able to determine when the error is their's vs. a problem with the firearm.

Since 99.9% of the 9 mm Glocks and HK's I've seen can shoot 5" or better groups at 25 yds, if you are unable to do so, the chances are it is you rather than a problem with the pistol. One good way to tell is to have an experienced shooter fire your pistol and see how it does in their hands--if good, then you know there is nothing wrong with the firearm.

The vast majority of people are better off getting additional training from a qualified instructor, rather than another firearm.

FWIW, I'd NEVER carry a Jericho over a 9mm Glock or HK...

Doc -

Not that much instruction, only a few hours in February. I'm planning to do more in March or April, and continue to get instruction every month or two. Someone else suggested that I have another person shoot it, and I will be doing just that as well. I wanted to ask some of the better shooters at the range today, but they were busy, maybe they'll be free later this week.

From what I can tell, there are lots of great reasons to not carry a Jericho over a Glock or H&K too, and the reliability isn't the only reason not to. It's a nice range gun though, and the other CZ that I've shot was too.

Thanks!

J.Ja

[mizer67]

Doc -

Not that much instruction, only a few hours in February. I'm planning to do more in March or April, and continue to get instruction every month or two. Someone else suggested that I have another person shoot it, and I will be doing just that as well. I wanted to ask some of the better shooters at the range today, but they were busy, maybe they'll be free later this week.

From what I can tell, there are lots of great reasons to not carry a Jericho over a Glock or H&K too, and the reliability isn't the only reason not to. It's a nice range gun though, and the other CZ that I've shot was too.

Thanks!

J.Ja

Work on your trigger control. 5 inch groups at 5 yards is most likely not a problem with the gun.

CZs usually have a good trigger when in single action. Glocks and HKs take more getting used to, but will shoot with most CZs <15-20 yards.

[DocGKR]

I sandbagged a OEM barreled G17 w/RMR07 and fired 10 rounds of Federal AE9FP 147 gr FMJ at a NRA B8 25 yds away. This resulted in a group with an extreme spread of 3.5" and a score of 98-7x.

I then took a brand new KKM G17B1 "drop-in" match barrel and literally dropped it into the pistol. I fired 2 rounds at a small 1" circle to check POA/POI--it required 3 clicks to left to re-zero; elevation was good. Then an additional 10 rounds were fired at a new B8 target in exactly the same manner. The KKM barrel gave an extreme spread of 2" and a score of 100-9x.

The OEM barrel had a couple of outliers. The KKM group was tighter and more consistent; it was fun seeing a nearly perfectly round 25yd group centered on the "X" that was shot out of a Glock. There was one shot that was about 0.1" outside the "X"--the KKM was that close to a 100-10x.

Although the KKM was better and more consistent when rested, when I shot 2 hand unsupported 10 rd groups with each barrel, there was no difference in score going from OEM to KKM, as I still got between 95-98 pts with 3-5x, so I did not see any improvement on that end yet--I am the weak link, not the barrels...

I'll continue to give the KKM a try over the next few months and see how it goes.

[GJM]

Anecdotally, for me, the Gen 4 9's seem to shoot better than the Gen 3 9's, but I prefer the trigger on the Gen 3 models. The RMR sure makes accuracy testing easier!