FN 509 Tactical

[Grey]

If it's a case of one, how are you saying "I wouldn't say the FNP 45T is a great case for red dot durability." ? Also what happens when the government or a PD authorizes a particular brand of dot over the "Gold standard" also if the Trijicon RMR is the gold standard how is the FNP killing it so consistently? You can try to blame the shop but gun gallery has a solid reputation and does solid work. So what's next?

How am i blaming the shop? I never even mentioned them.

Clearly you have an issue with red dots, cool keep being anti red dot. Ill just sit over here enjoying the advancements in technology.

Obviously discussing this isnt going to change your mind so carry on.

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[HCM]

How many are in the field, how many officers are carrying them? Or is it in the testing phase?

Right now ?

Houston PD has approved a list of guns and optics for full duty.

DHS / ICE has approved MOS guns as personally owned duty guns and is finalizing a list of approved optics.

Of course right now is not the future. But right now is where the standards for the future are being set, and the future has an RDS on it, whether it is one that is currently commercially availible or not.

[navyman8903]

45T has lots of issues and is old mount technology. The optic is only half the equation. Mounting MRDS on pistols is an engineering challenge. The reliability of MRDS on pistols has been far better in tight fitting custom milled slides like those done by ATEI than in first generation modular optics mounts such as the MOS and CORE systems.

FN thinks they have a better way to do a modular optics mount in the 509 Tactical which addresses these issues. Time will tell but if it works as advertised we have just seen modular optics mounting on pistols go from Gen 1 to Gen 2.

So while we wait for the future to catch up to prove the concept and finally deliver the overall bomb proof package like an aimpoint T2 on a rifle for instance. Well let's say a Comp M4s to make sure we're getting into most units down range. So when it gets to that point then it can be evaluated properly in my mind. There's more excuses and people trying to sell the dot concept. But I see a bunch of dudes out there running these pimped out rigs with no idea how to do it. Running light ass 115gr rounds with their compensated RDS pistols having all sorts of issues and can't figure out the added mass/reduced power of a delayed BLOW BACK operated weapon isn't a method for success. Plus all of the inherent issues associated with a pistol with a mounted RDS people like to overlook some of these issues to justify their project gun.

I don't care if you use it, I don't care if you carry it, and I couldn't care less if all your guns are outfitted like that. But "Pistols with RDS's are entering the tactical world" like TREX arms got laughed off discussion forums for and "They're the future" are bold statements. They're in the testing phase and the jury is out on their effectiveness. Especially on the Military and LE side of the house. I'm looking forward to hearing the feedback from officers on the ground after they've been implemented for a few years. If this trend lasts this long.

This isn't the first time people have been running dots on handguns, and they were abandoned until the tech improved. We'll see if they stick around this time.

[Trukinjp13]

Aimpoint jumping into the game is huge as far as I am concerned. Aimpoint knows that their is a future in this and they tried to test theirs on a gun that is hard as hell on equipment.

I also agree on the fn45. The thread that was mentioned is a prime example that you can not always blame the optic. This FN 509 style of mounting makes a lot of sense and hopefully will help. Whatever the case, this is just part of evolution. My g19.5 had a pro cut mill for rmr2 by atei and that bitch was solid without screws. No way it was moving once torqued down correctly. You also have to make sure you are using correct length and loctited screws.

This is the future for handguns. Now we have options from companies that are building rds for duty not gaming. It can only improve from here. No one here is saying you can not do work with irons. Just that like a carbine the red dot takes you to another level over irons. If you do not like it that is fine. We are free to feel how we want. But do not shit on it. Have you ever owned a pistol with a direct milled rmr2? Besides a fn45 tacticool what rds on pistol experience do you have? Serious questions, not trying to be a dick.

[HCM]

Multiple issues for what dot? We all know delta points are gamer dots. We know there are a bunch of dots that arent capable. We know there were battery contact issues for gen 1 RMRs.

We just had a thread on direct milling vs adapter plates for optic mounting. I wouldnt say the FNP 45T is a great case for red dot durability, first its an adapter plate, second its a case of 1.

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Actually we don't know that about the DPP. Just because GJM has broken a bunch of them doesn't mean everyone has had the same results with the DPP.
Aarron Cowan and at least one federal agency I'm aware of have had very good results with the DPP. It's worth noting the Army specified the DPP footprint for the MHS.

This does raise some good points. Everyone is focused on the next generation MRDS optic but one of the things we are learning is just how important mounting specs and methods are to MRDS on handguns. Going back to GJM, he has had much better results with the DPP on custom milled slides. Things like battery plates and proper torque spec have proven to make a big difference.

First generation anything usually has issues. The 1st generation modular mounting systems like the MOS and the CORE have not performed as well as good quality custom milling. That is a fact. I have been a critic of FN's handgun efforts but I must admit they are at least trying to push modular MRDS mounting into generation 2 and that is a win for everyone.

[HCM]

So while we wait for the future to catch up to prove the concept and finally deliver the overall bomb proof package like an aimpoint T2 on a rifle for instance. Well let's say a Comp M4s to make sure we're getting into most units down range. So when it gets to that point then it can be evaluated properly in my mind. There's more excuses and people trying to sell the dot concept. But I see a bunch of dudes out there running these pimped out rigs with no idea how to do it. Running light ass 115gr rounds with their compensated RDS pistols having all sorts of issues and can't figure out the added mass/reduced power of a delayed BLOW BACK operated weapon isn't a method for success. Plus all of the inherent issues associated with a pistol with a mounted RDS people like to overlook some of these issues to justify their project gun.

I don't care if you use it, I don't care if you carry it, and I couldn't care less if all your guns are outfitted like that. But "Pistols with RDS's are entering the tactical world" like TREX arms got laughed off discussion forums for and "They're the future" are bold statements. They're in the testing phase and the jury is out on their effectiveness. Especially on the Military and LE side of the house. I'm looking forward to hearing the feedback from officers on the ground after they've been implemented for a few years. If this trend lasts this long.

This isn't the first time people have been running dots on handguns, and they were abandoned until the tech improved. We'll see if they stick around this time.

So from an LE perspective, when was the last time you held someone at gun point. For me it was a few weeks ago when a suspect reached in his pocket when he should not have. I had to look over my iron sights to see he was pulling out a cell phone. Having also had occasion to hold suspects at gun point and evaluate their actions with an RDS carbine, I can state the target focus of the RDS (or any optic really) makes it much quicker and easier to make such assessments while remaining ready to react.

Re MRDS sticking around, 500K M17/18 and 50K CBP duty guns TBD is a good indication they are here to stay.

[Grey]

Actually we don't know that about the DPP. Just because GJM has broken a bunch of them doesn't mean everyone has had the same results with the DPP.
Aarron Cowan and at least one federal agency I'm aware of have had very good results with the DPP. It's worth noting the Army specified the DPP footprint for the MHS.

This does raise some good points. Everyone is focused on the next generation MRDS optic but one of the things we are learning is just how important mounting specs and methods are to MRDS on handguns. Going back to GJM, he has had much better results with the DPP on custom milled slides. Things like battery plates and proper torque spec have proven to make a big difference.

First generation anything usually has issues. The 1st generation modular mounting systems like the MOS and the CORE have not performed as well as good quality custom milling. That is a fact. I have been a critic of FN's handgun efforts but I must admit they are at least trying to push modular MRDS mounting into generation 2 and that is a win for everyone.

Fair enough, though I think if you asked Aaron if he would use a RMR gen 2 vs a DPP, he'd pick a RMR, pure speculation obviously but I believe his carry gun is RMR equipped.

[navyman8903]

So from an LE perspective, when was the last time you held someone at gun point. For me it was a few weeks ago when a suspect reached in his pocket when he should not have. I had to look over my iron sights to see he was pulling out a cell phone. Having also had occasion to hold suspects at gun point and evaluate their actions with an RDS carbine, I can state the target focus of the RDS (or any optic really) makes it much quicker and easier to make such assessments while remaining ready to react.

Re MRDS sticking around, 500K M17/18 and 50K CBP duty guns TBD is a good indication they are here to stay.

I did it much more at my last duty station, I can say I haven't had to yet on the ship. I have pointed my M240 at quite a few surface contacts, but I can't say I've had to point my rifle or pistol at anyone this year. You can't really control that stuff. I can say if you're consistent you can come off and onto your sights as needed. The delay for me always came with where I indexed my weapon. The aimpoint on my rifle helped sure, but I still had to pocket/get my cheek weld on the rifle. I've also been fast on irons from previous training. IT's all about reference points, muscle memory, and how comfortable you are with a particular weapon system.


You're also assuming everyone is getting RDS's on their weapons. You know damn well the average police officer, and grunt. Shit, every MA in my case isn't getting an RDS. You might get lucky to see them in special operations communities and RTTCQB Marines. Maaaaaybe. You also know training someone on a dot with a pistol isn't a fast affair. Weapons fam in general with a novice shooter is difficult. Let alone someone with trigger time going from irons to dots. Some people pick it up faster than others, but there's an understood learning curve.

You're taking a lot of things that are variables for granted. Lots of maybe's and might's for solid yes's.

[pooty]

You're also assuming everyone is getting RDS's on their weapons. You know damn well the average police officer, and grunt. Shit, every MA in my case isn't getting an RDS. You might get lucky to see them in special operations communities and RTTCQB Marines. Maaaaaybe. You also know training someone on a dot with a pistol isn't a fast affair. Weapons fam in general with a novice shooter is difficult. Let alone someone with trigger time going from irons to dots. Some people pick it up faster than others, but there's an understood learning curve.

You're taking a lot of things that are variables for granted. Lots of maybe's and might's for solid yes's.

No this is not true since at least 2005 almost all infantry who went outside the wire had RDS or ACOGs on M16/M4

What learning curve? Shooter looks at the target and puts the red dot on it, like in a video game, doesn't get any easier than that.

[HCM]

You're also assuming everyone is getting RDS's on their weapons. You know damn well the average police officer, and grunt. Shit, every MA in my case isn't getting an RDS. You might get lucky to see them in special operations communities and RTTCQB Marines. Maaaaaybe. You also know training someone on a dot with a pistol isn't a fast affair. Weapons fam in general with a novice shooter is difficult. Let alone someone with trigger time going from irons to dots. Some people pick it up faster than others, but there's an understood learning curve.

You're taking a lot of things that are variables for granted. Lots of maybe's and might's for solid yes's.

RDS on carbines used to only be for special folks - that is no longer the case. While some support troops may still run irons almost all combat arms troops who go outside the wire have optics/RDS. In the LE world, all federal LE I am aware of issue AR / M4 carbines with RDS across the board, FBI, DEA, ICE and CBP/USBP etc have tens of thousands of AR's with RDS and WML. It is simply the current professional standard and has been for the past 10 to 15 years.

RDS on handguns will, eventually be the current professional standard. With carbines it took about 10 years from special people first playing with Aimpoint 3000 and 5000s and Bushnell Holosights to the Army adopting the Aimpoint Comp M as the first M68 CCO in 1997 or 1998. They were pretty much universal with serious users between 5-10 years after that.

In the LE world, you will also get a percentage who will buy their own RDS if authorized. About 1/3 of my people have personally owned, agency approved handguns (POW). We currently have two approved optics ready POW models and await a list of authorized optics.

Teaching anyone to shoot a pistol well is harder and more time consuming that teaching them a long gun. Keep in mind teaching a new shooter to use an RDS is much easier than re-teaching someone who has ingrained iron sight shooting, particularly if they have ingrained it at the unconscious competence level. old dogs new tricks. The RDS learning curve doesn't really apply to new shooters.

From an agency perspective is an RDS helps my struggling shooters and shooters with aging eye qualify the RDS is much cheaper than the man hours for remedial training time.