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Thread: SIG M17 Commercial Version coming in August 2018

  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by JRB View Post
    There's honestly what could only be called a cultural hatred of the M9 within the Army and USMC. A lack of actual training and immersion time with M9's leads to poor performance which is exacerbated by poor maintenance. I've pulled at least two dozen cracked locking blocks out of issued M9's on qual ranges. Whoever thought 3rd party locking blocks were a good idea needs a kick in the ass.

    Armorers often don't care to really learn about the design and everything is a work-order driven break-fix process that gets parts thrown at it and then it's TI'd and thrown back in an arms room. The aftermarket locking blocks are a disaster in and of themselves. Same for the lack of PM on trigger return springs, recoil springs, and grip panels.
    Most S4 sections also are grossly negligent about discarding those old flawed magazines. Unless the magazine is visibly damaged they toss it back in circulation even if it's ID'd as a problem child by range personnel. I have culled an astounding number of gulf-war era M9 magazines out of two different Arms Rooms. S4 bitches every time because they don't want to spend unit money on new M9 magazines.

    I was threatened with a statement of charges for destroying several bad 5.56 and a few M9 magazines at a range I conducted. The 5.56 mags I destroyed were first generation BLACK follower magazines that somehow floated in a unit's magazine box for all these years. They were ID'd because Soldiers shooting a qualification were seeing stoppages on the firing line - and those Soldiers wrongly got the typical Army RSO "clean your weapon" ass-chewing when it was actually the ~25+ year old magazine's fault.

    But if a shooter performs poorly with an M9, or a stoppage is seen with an M9, everyone just shrugs and blames the M9. Soldiers naturally would rather save the weight vs carrying a weapon that's almost institutionally maligned all around. That's why we have the M17, is because it's new and it is *not* an M9. Because it's not an M9, it solves this cultural distrust of the M9 seen within the Army - but it solves none of the actual software issues with handguns and proper training in the military, and it's a short matter of time before the maintenance issues set in.

    Overall the Army's handgun problem is a cultural software one, but it's blamed on hardware because of a few hardware problems that could be overcome with proper instruction and proper maintenance support by people who give a shit.
    New springs, new grip panels, new *Beretta* locking blocks and the new 17rnd sand-resistant magazines would solve the overwhelming majority of the problems I've seen with even the most beat-up old M9's. New JHP 147grn ammo would be a vast lethality improvement over the goddamn 124gr NATO ball ammo.
    But that would require an expert-driven program that needs to miraculously slide past the bean counters completely intact, and fixing old pistols doesn't look nearly as good as 'NEW PISTOLS YAY!' on OER's for the O6/O7 types making these decisions.
    Everything else you describe is true except this- a 147 JHP would NOT be a vast improvement in lethality over 124 grain NATO Ball. An improvement yes but not enough to matter given the sorry state of pistol skills in most general purpose forces.

    The only thing that would provide a vast improvement in handgun lethality would be improving the soldier or marines ability to hit relevant (B-8) sized targets at speed and under stress.

    We have a hard time doing that in LE and handguns are our primary weapon.

  2. #212
    Member JHC's Avatar
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    So why has the M17 and public sector 320 had issues running ball ammo when the civilian markets 320s seem to have run great? Mine never bobbled in 800 rounds not counting some hard Russian primers in freezing whether.
    “Remember, being healthy is basically just dying as slowly as possible,” Ricky Gervais

  3. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    Everything else you describe is true except this- a 147 JHP would NOT be a vast improvement in lethality over 124 grain NATO Ball. An improvement yes but not enough to matter given the sorry state of pistol skills in most general purpose forces.

    The only thing that would provide a vast improvement in handgun lethality would be improving the soldier or marines ability to hit relevant (B-8) sized targets at speed and under stress.

    We have a hard time doing that in LE and handguns are our primary weapon.
    Here I thought I'd pretty methodically described that in my post, and thereby avoided the inevitable sanctimonious drive-by comment about pistol skill. I guess not.

    Having shot a lot of that 124gr NATO ball ammo, 147 JHP's of any flavor would be a welcome improvement for those of us that *do* take marksmanship and pistol work seriously. Perhaps 'vast' improvement is an exaggeration, especially if DocGKR hasn't tested it yet, and that is a superb distinction to make.

  4. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by JRB View Post
    Here I thought I'd pretty methodically described that in my post, and thereby avoided the inevitable sanctimonious drive-by comment about pistol skill. I guess not.

    Having shot a lot of that 124gr NATO ball ammo, 147 JHP's of any flavor would be a welcome improvement for those of us that *do* take marksmanship and pistol work seriously. Perhaps 'vast' improvement is an exaggeration, especially if DocGKR hasn't tested it yet, and that is a superb distinction to make.
    Are you wanting 147 JHP because you think it is more accurate or for better terminal performance?

    Either way I think you will be disappointed.

  5. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    Are you wanting 147 JHP because you think it is more accurate or for better terminal performance?

    Either way I think you will be disappointed.
    I find it highly unlikely that it's worse than the 124gr load, and I'll take improvement anywhere I can get it.

    Edit:

    The ammo change is almost certainly the result of the same 'I GOT OUR TROOPS THIS BETTER THING' impetus that's got so many Soldiers warm fuzzies about the M17 just because it's NOT an M9.
    The only difference is that unlike the M9, the 124gr FMJ does indeed totally suck.
    Last edited by JRB; 02-28-2019 at 01:11 AM.

  6. #216
    Hoping this will help spur the release of a civilian M18.

    https://www.foxnews.com/tech/air-for...rnizes-weapons

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  7. #217
    Site Supporter Bigghoss's Avatar
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    I just go one of these the other day. I live in Colorado so I'm looking for 15 round mags for it. I didn't see any neautered full-size mags on Sig's website. Does such a thing even exist for the P320 series? If not, could I use a compact grip module on it? Notched for the safety of course.
    Quote Originally Posted by MattyD380 View Post
    Because buying cool, interesting guns I don't need isn't a decision... it's a lifestyle...

  8. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigghoss View Post
    I just go one of these the other day. I live in Colorado so I'm looking for 15 round mags for it. I didn't see any neautered full-size mags on Sig's website. Does such a thing even exist for the P320 series? If not, could I use a compact grip module on it? Notched for the safety of course.
    They make a notched compact grip for the MA compliant models.

  9. #219
    Site Supporter Bigghoss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    They make a notched compact grip for the MA compliant models.
    I know they exist but I haven't been able to find them for sale. I checked the Sig store and couldn't find them and a Google search just came up with other people who couldn't find them either. Although the most recent thread I found was from 2017. If there's a place that sells grip modules notched for the thumb safety that'd be great. But the modules are only $40 so I'm willing to try notching one if need be. I just wanted to make sure a compact module would work with the M17 slide first because I haven't been following the P320 series much.

    I think the M17 is built on the carry frame which would normally have a compact slide, which would mean the M17 slide should also work on a compact frame but I really don't know. I only bought the thing because I work as a civilian security guard for the Department of the Army and we're supposed to be switching over to them soon.
    Last edited by Bigghoss; 07-04-2019 at 04:04 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by MattyD380 View Post
    Because buying cool, interesting guns I don't need isn't a decision... it's a lifestyle...

  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigghoss View Post
    I know they exist but I haven't been able to find them for sale. I checked the Sig store and couldn't find them and a Google search just came up with other people who couldn't find them either. Although the most recent thread I found was from 2017. If there's a place that sells grip modules notched for the thumb safety that'd be great. But the modules are only $40 so I'm willing to try notching one if need be. I just wanted to make sure a compact module would work with the M17 slide first because I haven't been following the P320 series much.

    I think the M17 is built on the carry frame which would normally have a compact slide, which would mean the M17 slide should also work on a compact frame but I really don't know. I only bought the thing because I work as a civilian security guard for the Department of the Army and we're supposed to be switching over to them soon.
    You have to call SIG or top gun supply.

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