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Thread: TDA vs. DAO

  1. #11
    Hammertime
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    Quote Originally Posted by caleb View Post
    I will always shoot slower splits with a D gun than I can with a F/G gun. The thing about a D is that there is a certain amount of required trigger travel that has to happen in order to make the loud noises again, and that takes time.
    In my experience that time is about 0.08s.

  2. #12
    Member Gadfly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by revchuck38 View Post
    Elsewhere on this forum, I've described my PX4 D as my "18-shot 4" K frame", so we've got a similar perspective.
    Shit, you are making me want one. and I DON'T need one. Not At All.

    But I did find a Used DAO Storm in .40.... Cheap.... and I DON'T NEED IT... But kind of want it.
    A gun is a tool, Marian; no better or no worse than any other tool: an axe, a shovel or anything. A gun is as good or as bad as the man using it. Remember that. - Shane

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by caleb View Post
    I will always shoot slower splits with a “D” gun than I can with a F/G gun. The thing about a D is that there is a certain amount of required trigger travel that has to happen in order to make the loud noises again, and that takes time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enel View Post
    In my experience that time is about 0.08s.
    @caleb That makes perfect sense. Assuming for the sake of discussion that the experience of @Enel is about the same as mine, the next question might be "Does it matter in the context of defensive (as opposed to competitive) shooting?" IIRC @Dagga Boy mentioned that some elite units work with .5 splits rather than max speed in order to maximize accuracy and round accountability. Accurate (10 ring on a B-8 at five yards) .5 splits are doable for me with either gun using both hands on a square range. I agree that faster would be better if I could maintain that accuracy, but is the juice worth the squeeze?

  4. #14
    My take is this. These guns can be shot well. Key word "can". The reality with any trigger is that the more movement, the more effort required to move a trigger, and the more concentration during that movement makes for both more time and more time to impart other errors. That is "bad" for shooting, but good for assessment and thinking. Don't get me wrong on where Wayne and I discuss the .30-.50 plus range as a good range to shoot. It has nothing to do with capability and everything to do with thinking. Those are thinking and assessment speeds. The guys in elite units absolutely can shoot faster, we simply note they tend to practice and work at mastery within their thinking and shooting speed. TDA gives you a thinking trigger when you need a thinking trigger and a shooting trigger when you need a shooting trigger. Negative is it requires training a sub conscious post shooting action (decocking). DAO is a thinking trigger all the time. Nothing wrong with that, just not great for doing a lot of pure shooting stuff. Work a force on force shoot house with a TDA gun cold and it would not be the handicap it would be on a USPSA competition. I spent decades with a 4' Model 13 as my dedicated SIMS bad guy role player gun........lots of folks armed with "shooting" guns and sub machine guns fell to it. I have a 3953 that will likely end up with my daughter at some point to offset her Model 65 3". Doesn't really care much about shooting, totally gets the defense aspect, and understands needing a firearm for protection but simply isn't all that into shooting and being right will be more important than being fast. That may change, but for now she has liked the simple aspect of it. That is the nice thing about the DAO. They are less complex in other administrative actions and the not shooting portion of operation as other systems.
    Just a Hairy Special Snowflake supply clerk with no field experience, shooting an Asymetric carbine as a Try Hard. Snarky and easily butt hurt. Favorite animal is the Cape Buffalo....likely indicative of a personality disorder.
    "If I had a grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton".

  5. #15
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    @Dagga Boy - thanks for the clarification/correction of what I remembered and additional info!
    Last edited by revchuck38; 07-20-2018 at 06:21 PM.

  6. #16
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    So...the availability of a FS G model at a really good price from a forum member just pushed me off the fence. The D will become a well-liked and proven reserve gun, my current F/G will be the primary carry gun until the (at this point in time unfired) G proves reliable and then they'll probably switch roles with the F/G becoming my training gun. I'm glad to be comfortable enough with both modes of operation to have this flexibility.

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by revchuck38 View Post
    So...the availability of a FS G model at a really good price from a forum member just pushed me off the fence. The D will become a well-liked and proven reserve gun, my current F/G will be the primary carry gun until the (at this point in time unfired) G proves reliable and then they'll probably switch roles with the F/G becoming my training gun. I'm glad to be comfortable enough with both modes of operation to have this flexibility.
    What is an FS G model? Is that an FS with a G conversion?

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    What is an FS G model? Is that an FS with a G conversion?
    FS = Full-size, G = factory-configured de-cock only.

  9. #19
    Member rsa-otc's Avatar
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    Feb 2011
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    A little late to the discussion but let me add my 2 cents. IMO DB is on the money. For CCW/Duty carry double action is a more deliberate action. Gives you time to see, assess and react. One of the few times I had to pull my gun on duty if I had a SA or SF gun there would be a teenager with at the very least an extra hole in them today. Having that DA trigger stroke allowed me to stop my trigger pull prior to the gun going off. IMO having every trigger pull a deliberate action is not a bad thing.

    I have been teaching defensive revolver to people for going on 40 years and I can count on one hand the number of people I wasn't able to get to pass our Q course which has always been harder than the state course. Any time we got together with another company or PD my guys crushed them. The last time half way through the day the other departments instructor asked that we not post the scores and just enjoy the hot dogs and hamburgers. They were shooting Sig 229's at the time, our guns were all DOA revolvers.

    For the record I am fortunate that I get to start teaching beginners one or two students at a time and get to stomp on bad habits hard immediately before they become ingrained. Most PD or agency trainers don't have that luxury in an academy setting.
    Last edited by rsa-otc; 07-23-2018 at 06:02 AM.
    Scott
    Only Hits Count - The Faster the Hit the more it Counts!!!!!!; DELIVER THE SHOT!
    Stephen Hillier - "An amateur practices until he can do it right, a professional practices until he can't do it wrong."

  10. #20
    Site Supporter hufnagel's Avatar
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    Feb 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagga Boy View Post
    My take is this. These guns can be shot well. Key word "can". The reality with any trigger is that the more movement, the more effort required to move a trigger, and the more concentration during that movement makes for both more time and more time to impart other errors. That is "bad" for shooting, but good for assessment and thinking. Don't get me wrong on where Wayne and I discuss the .30-.50 plus range as a good range to shoot. It has nothing to do with capability and everything to do with thinking. Those are thinking and assessment speeds. The guys in elite units absolutely can shoot faster, we simply note they tend to practice and work at mastery within their thinking and shooting speed. TDA gives you a thinking trigger when you need a thinking trigger and a shooting trigger when you need a shooting trigger. Negative is it requires training a sub conscious post shooting action (decocking). DAO is a thinking trigger all the time. Nothing wrong with that, just not great for doing a lot of pure shooting stuff. Work a force on force shoot house with a TDA gun cold and it would not be the handicap it would be on a USPSA competition. I spent decades with a 4' Model 13 as my dedicated SIMS bad guy role player gun........lots of folks armed with "shooting" guns and sub machine guns fell to it. I have a 3953 that will likely end up with my daughter at some point to offset her Model 65 3". Doesn't really care much about shooting, totally gets the defense aspect, and understands needing a firearm for protection but simply isn't all that into shooting and being right will be more important than being fast. That may change, but for now she has liked the simple aspect of it. That is the nice thing about the DAO. They are less complex in other administrative actions and the not shooting portion of operation as other systems.
    You do realize I just added another link in my sig to one of your posts, right?
    You summed up in words the swirly thoughts that were in my head perfectly.

    (edit: will get linked once I figure out why i'm having sig overflow problems)
    Last edited by hufnagel; 07-23-2018 at 06:34 AM.
    Rules to live by: 1. Eat meat, 2. Shoot guns, 3. Fire, 4. Gasoline, 5. Make juniors
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