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Thread: That incident at the George Webb restaurant

  1. #21
    I would love it if everyone who carried a gun could at least shoot MM on the IDPA classifier. It's a pretty low bar but I'd wager most permit holders couldn't pass it now.

    However, I dont agree with requiring that level of skill. Getting good with a gun requires a significant investment of time & money, and if you set the skill bar too high you're restricting carry rights to people who have the resources to practice. I think poor people have the right to self defense too.

    As it stands, I don't know if the shooting test in any state is really useful. The shooting test in my last state was basically "can you shoot 50 rounds downrange without hurting yourself." Before that, I got a FL non-resident permit with a hunter's safety card (as my proof of firearms competency) and never fired a shot.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by SAWBONES View Post
    OTOH, I've always thought that it would be a good thing if additional firearms training or certification were somehow incentivized or rewarded. Not that I know what form such incentives might take...or that any such thing would ever actually happen.
    Quote Originally Posted by perlslacker View Post
    I would love it if everyone who carried a gun could at least shoot MM on the IDPA classifier. It's a pretty low bar but I'd wager most permit holders couldn't pass it now.
    I have thought that there could be a tiered approach, where a higher level of demonstrated skill could expand your permit. Like a CHL that should be basically a right is available to all who have not violated any laws that would cause forfeiture of their rights, but if I can shoot the same qualification as federal LE then I should be good in all the same places.

    Of course I would also advocate this for drivers licenses as well. I will take a school in order to get distinguished license plates that would authorize a higher speed limit. Right now I am limited to the same lowest common denominator laws as my 80yo mother, even though I have road racing experience and could demonstrate a higher level of competence. But I don't wanna hijack my own thread...

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by SAWBONES View Post
    I've come to believe that passing of a "special skills test" must not be required before one may exercise his right to own (and carry) firearms.

    OTOH, I've always thought that it would be a good thing if additional firearms training or certification were somehow incentivized or rewarded.

    Not that I know what form such incentives might take...or that any such thing would ever actually happen.
    (After all, who would administer such a program?)
    When WV passed constitutional carry they also added a tax incentive if you take a basic pistol class. It's only $50 and no one seems to know it exists.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duces Tecum View Post
    At one time I favored "skill" tests for CHLs, but then one of you guys (sadly, I've forgotten who) wrote something that changed my perspective. His observation was that Constitutional Carry states have no skill tests at all, yet their firearm accident rates are not statistically greater than those states with strict "skill" requirements for licensing.

    I don't know if I'm the person you're talking about but I've said that multiple times

  5. #25
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    Training is a good thing but I don’t think it should be mandatory.
    It’s been my experience that those that would benefit from firearms training (safety or otherwise) tend to seek it out on their own and those who wouldn’t benefit wouldn’t pay any attention to the training and wouldn’t retain any of it any longer than they had to, to get their permit. (Think of the one idiot in every platoon that has to be told to keep his/her weapon up and down range Every. Single. Time. they go to the qual range.)

    I also don’t like the idea of mandatory training because once you have a mandated training standard in place it’s just a matter of degree until the bar gets raised so high no one can pass it.

    My final point, as I’ve said before is that there is no statistical evidence that states with a training requirement have lower instance of firearms related accident than states with none. Why mandate something that hasn’t been shown to have any real effect?

  6. #26
    Supporting Business NH Shooter's Avatar
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    A face full of hot grease or boiling water, followed up with a cast iron frying pan to the side of the head would have been awesome - and I suspect wholly justified under the circumstances.

    Sometimes just the presence of a firearm does the job, other times all the skill in the world won't save your bacon.

    All things considered, I guess this case worked out about as well as anyone could hope for.

  7. #27
    Site Supporter Hambo's Avatar
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    It would be great if citizens realized that lethal force carries serious responsibility and sought out training on their own, but that's not going to happen on a large scale.
    "Gunfighting is a thinking man's game. So we might want to bring thinking back into it."-MDFA

  8. #28
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    I agree with all of the comments about wishing the average CCW holder had more training, either mandated or of their own accord. I also agree with JodyH that you just can't fix stupid. Especially in a one day CCW course.

    But to change the topic just a bit...

    I've seen people over the years, civilian and a even few random LEO's who have received formalized training and possessed at least a minimum skill set, but lacked what I personally feel is one of the most important components for armed self defense. The appropriate mindset. The armed restaurant worker appeared to have the appropriate mindset. By that I mean she appeared to have the determination and the resolve to use force to stop the assault. I've seen enough people over the years who when confronted with a real life critical incident, froze like Bambi. This is a topic I think should also be discussed with people new to the concept of being armed in public prior to being issued their CCW license.
    Last edited by Beat Trash; 07-15-2018 at 08:25 AM.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by NH Shooter View Post
    A face full of hot grease or boiling water, followed up with a cast iron frying pan to the side of the head would have been awesome
    I think that coulda gone either way, weapons to grab all over the place in a commercial kitchen. I think she coulda justified shooting, but her life is a whole lot simpler this way...

  10. #30
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    I wonder how many people with minimal or no training, survived an event, realized they needed more training and then decided to go to Thunder Ranch or similar?

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