That mirrors my experience with the gun I could replicate this on. It was... a very artificial procedure for me.Originally Posted by miller_man
I sink my trigger finger deep but never that deep. I had to rotate the gun somewhat sideways in my hand and press the trigger extremely slow before I could make this happen.
"A man's character is his fate."
It seems like this problem is common to more P07/09 pistols than many of us would have thought a month or so back, when I first encountered it. I believe the reason why it is pretty unlikely to be encountered, is it only happens in DA when you press the trigger a certain way. I firmly believe the reason I happened to stumble onto it now, and not previously despite owning P07/09 pistols for years, was that I was shooting a P09 for USPSA, and as a result putting a very high round count through these pistols in dry fire, live fire practice and in matches. This upped the number of DA presses I put on these pistols, including in the weird positions we often start USPSA stages, with the stress that matches can provide.
I personally believe CZ has a big problem with the design of the P07/09, as you should not have to press a DA trigger on a pistol designed for defensive use in a certain way to make it go bang.
Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.
It is certainly a problem, but to keep it in perspective... it is only a problem with some of the guns produced and, even then, it only seems to come into play under certain circumstances.
Now, of course, if it affects your gun(s) and those circumstances are likely for you... then, yes, I would say it is a big problem. ;-)
Given the variances I've seen with the particular guns I've owned, I think the root cause is that most CZ models are produced in a way that requires them to be tuned to run reliably.
I suppose it comes down to whether that is desirable/tolerable in a carry gun... for some the juice may not be worth the squeeze.
"A man's character is his fate."
I can understand why you say that. But, I and a bunch of others have pretty high round counts on our P07/09s, shoot under high stress, and weird positions, and cannot make the guns fail to fire. Sinking the trigger finger so deep that the tip bumps when the sear releases requires much bigger hands than I have, or a very contrived trigger press.
I’d like to see CZ address the issue, but it will not keep me from carrying the P07.
“There is no growth in the comfort zone.”--Jocko Willink
"You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
If for example, Glock pistols exhibited this same issue at the same frequency we have seen just with the few P07/09 pistols here on PF, it would be the subject of a 60 Minures segment, and the Glock would be withdrawn from use by military and LE.
Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.
Perhaps, but look at all of the issues Glock has gotten a pass on over the years. Sig, as well.
No matter what platform you choose for defensive use, you are making trade-offs that you find palatable (hopefully sensible ones), and the days of being able to blindly trust any gun out of the box are well over IMO.
I find it interesting the way that people on this forum view things compared to how the gun community at large sees them. We are definitely more critical - rightly so - and (I would say) more opinionated... again, rightly so, because our opinions tend to be more fact-based and informed ;-)
In the end, I am of the opinion that whatever gun you trust your life to MUST be personally vetted in the configuration you actually will carry it in. My personal standard is 200 rounds of defensive ammo and 300 rounds of training ammo without any malfunctions. In cases where I have encountered an issue, the gun and ammo are reviewed and the count is reset. Guns that never pass this standard are never carried.
"A man's character is his fate."
I agree. Actually, I am more concerned about the recent report of a G43 trigger safety pin backing out than I am about the P07 issue.
200 rounds? I’m a bit more conservative about my carry/defense guns. I want 1000’s of rounds through at least two guns. I’ve decided that I am not interested in carrying new designs, and will stick with well-proven guns. And I want to understand how the gun works and be satisfied with the engineering. Because I carry my guns under difficult conditions (eg. rolling in mud, sand, and dust during a two day precision rifle match) I demand that the guns can function when dirty or fouled. So far, Glocks and CZ P-07s have met my criteria.
Last edited by Clusterfrack; 08-27-2018 at 10:20 AM.
“There is no growth in the comfort zone.”--Jocko Willink
"You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
For bear defense, the rolling around in inclement conditions, shooting from weird positions is paramount. A few years back, friends were hunting on Afognak (island north end of Kodiak). Dragging a deer down to the boat, they were attacked by a sow and two large cubs. The hunter missed the sow with his rifle at close range and a FUT ensued where one hunter was grievously mauled by the sow. Bad things ensued with the hunter and sow rolling around on the ground, including the son in law of the hunter shooting the sow off the hunter with a contact rifle shot. Then one of the cubs attacked, and the son in law grabbed a revolver from the injured hunter’s holster and shot the bear in the head at arm’s length distance. I am betting there were mostly imperfect trigger presses in that fight, gloves involved, and the need for the trigger to work for more than one person. I don’t know anything about ECQC, but I would bet some urban entanglements don’t look that different.
Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.
500 of mixed ammo. 200 minimum of the ammo I intend to carry.
And, really, that is a minimum standard... developed as it was only because, historically, I've been in the position of having to sell guns to fund new guns so time was a bigger factor than ammo. More is definitely better if time and budget allow.
Honestly, these days I'm not happy to see *any* malfunctions in a gun meant for carrying that has had less than 2-3k rounds of quality ammo through it. The P-07s were the first guns I've owned to pass that milestone and I'm well on the way there with my Gen 5 Glock 19.
Last edited by s0nspark; 08-27-2018 at 10:41 AM.
"A man's character is his fate."
Rolling (BJJ?) with bears in inclement weather is not sounding like fun!
"A man's character is his fate."
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