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Thread: RFI 38-40 rifle info, Modern rifles/pistols

  1. #11
    Frequent DG Adventurer fatdog's Avatar
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    A friend shoots an original Winchester '73 .38-40 at our NCOWS cowboy matches. He reloads with 2F black powder only. He has indicated to me that in reloading, the whole neck tension thing is something that requires a lot of attention to get right, just like .44-40. He lubes cases for resizing as you would expect for any bottleneck cartridge. The Starline cases have performed well for him.

  2. #12
    Site Supporter gringop's Avatar
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    38-40 status report:

    My brother and I got Victor's Colt SAA out on Labor Day with some Black Hills 180gr ammo.

    682 mean fps
    60 spread fps
    21 Standard Deviation

    I'm sure I can beat that with some Trail Boss and careful experimentation.

    It's got one chamber that's a little sticky, as in "hit the ejector with a plastic screwdriver handle" sticky. We may just make that chamber the "hammer down on empty" chamber.

    Ordered brass, dies and bullets last night. Not finding any good deals on rifles, I do see this.

    https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/prod...om=Search&cx=0

    May have to go for the Cimarron. Gonna haunt the Internet and gun shows for a while to see what else is out there.

    At 20 yards, these are our shots from a rest, mine are numbered and my brothers are on the plate with one below it. Friggin jerk, I mean, damn good shooting bro!

    Gringop

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    I'll be ready for SASS any day now.

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    Last edited by gringop; 09-05-2018 at 02:16 AM.
    Play that song about the Irish chiropodist. Irish chiropodist? "My Fate Is In Your Hands."

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by gringop View Post
    38-40 status report:

    My brother and I got Victor's Colt SAA out on Labor Day with some Black Hills 180gr ammo.

    682 mean fps
    60 spread fps
    21 Standard Deviation

    I'm sure I can beat that with some Trail Boss and careful experimentation.
    That's just over half what it should be IMO.

    Regarding Trailboss, there is a formula for determining charge loads for cartridges with no published data. IIRC, it's fill the case to the bottom of the bullet, then take 75% of that as your starting load. Look it up as I may be misremembering, but it's something along those lines. I use TB for a lot of handgun and rifle cartridges. Magical stuff...

    An unconventional option for a rifle may be to get a Thompson Encore and have the likes of MGM make a custom barrel. Barrel if MGM can produce it entirely will be about $400. The Encore frame and stock will be $200-$350 depending on new/used and market price.

    Chris

  4. #14
    Hillbilly Elitist Malamute's Avatar
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    I believe the old factory loads assumed suitable for all guns was a 180 gr jacketed flat nose soft point at 975 fps in a 7 1/2" barrel. So yes, it shouldnt be difficult to get better velocities even with common powders.

    Does the sticky chamber show signs of pitting or roughness? You may be able to polish it a bit and alleviate that.

  5. #15
    John and Dustin Linebaugu have started to build super-accurate, hot-loaded 38-40 revolvers. That in itself won’t help you, but keep an ear to the ground. There will probably be some chatter about how to maximize accuracy on some of the other forums.


    Okie John
    “The reliability of the 30-06 on most of the world’s non-dangerous game is so well established as to be beyond intelligent dispute.” Finn Aagaard
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  6. #16
    Hillbilly Elitist Malamute's Avatar
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    I was kind of surprised when he showed me one of those. They sound pretty cool.

  7. #17
    Hillbilly Elitist Malamute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malamute View Post
    I believe the old factory loads assumed suitable for all guns was a 180 gr jacketed flat nose soft point at 975 fps in a 7 1/2" barrel. So yes, it shouldnt be difficult to get better velocities even with common powders.

    Does the sticky chamber show signs of pitting or roughness? You may be able to polish it a bit and alleviate that.
    "better velocities" than those 600-something fps cowboy plinking loads. Those sound like something youd load for shooting in the basement without bothering people in the house too much.
    Last edited by Malamute; 09-05-2018 at 08:11 PM.

  8. #18
    Site Supporter gringop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malamute View Post
    "better velocities" than those 600-something fps cowboy plinking loads. Those sound like something youd load for shooting in the basement without bothering people in the house too much.
    The Black Hills loads did not obdurate until the shoulder of the case, lots of smoke/carbon crap on the necks. We had 6 rounds of R-P ammo that were bought back in the 80s and were held in a presentation case for the pistol that my brother made. That ammo had a mean of 745 fps. The shoulder was more of a crimp at the base of the shoulder and expanded out to a slanted shoulder after firing. I guess that's one way of dealing with varying shoulder dimensions in different chambers in this caliber.

    Not gonna push the velocity and pressures in this old Colt. The chambers look pretty good but the bore is like an inverted corn cob. Must have been some mercury based primers/non-religious cleaning in it's past. Understandable, I'm keeping up that tradition with my G-19s.

    "Tack så mycket" (thank you very much) Victor, for this gun and so much more.

    The new brass and dies are due on Friday, which I have taken off from work. Happy Happy, Joy Joy.

    Gringop
    Play that song about the Irish chiropodist. Irish chiropodist? "My Fate Is In Your Hands."

  9. #19
    Hillbilly Elitist Malamute's Avatar
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    Im surprised the old factory loads were such low velocity. There would be some reduction expected in shorter barrels, but not quite mid 700s.

    Curious how the handloading goes. Have you checked groove diameter? Many of the old ones seem to shoot pretty well despite rough bores. There is likely info for loading the 38-40 on the Castboolits forum. Another place would be the cascity forum. I looked recently and the site was down for upgrades. They have a lot of info on obscure old style guns and calibers. In any event, both black powder and some types of smokeless can provide very decent velocities without raising pressures. Some people have worked with pressure gauges and determined black powder pressure curves can be duplicated by some types of smokeless. Its common to simply say "smokeless has a different pressure curve, dont use it in old guns" and that wold not be entirely accurate. The effort to clean guns fired with black powder is widely exaggerated. If the cases seal, its basically hot tap water patches through the bore until clean, dry well with more patches until dry dry, and let set a few minutes, then oil. Its actually easier to remove than some smokeless and jacketed fouling. Keeping the internals well oiled alleviates any small amounts of fouling that may get inside. The oil keeps it from becoming a problem for the most part. Shooting black powder cartridges is a real hoot, it puts a big smile on many peoples faces. The modern alternative black powder substitutes are more corrosive and harder to clean by all accounts Ive seen. BTW, Swiss powder is the best quality and velocity, similar to what was actually used in cartridges when it was factory ammo.

    Some of the older Colt chambers were reported to blow the base of the shoulder out pretty far and had to be worked a lot to get it back to factory ammo location. Not sure how to keep from working the brass much if its moving it very far, perhaps neck sizing some with a 40 s&w/10mm cal size die.

    Please keep us informed how the loading journey progresses.
    Last edited by Malamute; 09-06-2018 at 08:30 AM.

  10. #20
    I’ll have to dig out my notes, but I bought a Colt New Service in .38-40 a few years ago and did some loading for it. Ken Waters and Mike Venturino have done some articles for Handlider over the years. Waters did at least one on heavier than normal loads for rifles, but it’s getting pretty old now.

    And yes, the shoulder location in the chamber of my Colt was farther forward than the factory ammo, brass, or die specs. Clearly visible on fired and unfired cases with the naked eye. I’m sure setting it back would shorten case life and make it harder to seal the chamber, so I short sized.

    I cast, so mostly used the bullets from the RCBS 40-180CM mold...which, as is often the case, looks different than catalog drawings. Many .38-40 cast bullets out there don’t have a crimp groove, since they were designed to sit on a full case of BP so there was little chance of setback. The RCBS and SAECO 401 are exceptions. In theory, jacketed .40/10mm bullets can be used, but you run into the same thing- no canneluee to crimp into. Kind of a pain in a revolver once recoil gets to a certain point, or in a tube magazine rifle.

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