Not my monkeys or circus (yet?)

[HCountyGuy]

I figured I’d help get this topic going because I think it’s discussion-worthy. I also recognize it has the potential to be relegated to the Romper Room fast, but I’ll give it a shot here.

The topic stems from the recent shooting incident in Kenosha, WI where a local-ish individual decided to come in, accompanying others, to help protect businesses. He was armed and eventually was attacked and defended himself with his rifle, killing 2 and wounding a third.

Most of us agree that when you go looking for trouble, you’re likely going to find it. As such, the consensus is avoiding the Stupid Trifecta and generally steering clear of identifiable problems. However, there also seems to be room for debate as to the current or continued viability of such practices of “minding your own business” in the face of the ever-expanding unrest.

JRB made an excellent remark on such in the “OIS in Kenosha” thread:

The 'Not my monkeys, not my circus' attitude works great right up until that awful moment where it just might actually prove to be *everyone's* Circus.
As much as I'd prefer it not to be the case, that threshold is getting far closer than I'd like to admit.

Considering where we'd be as a nation without the countless 17-18 year olds willing to carry rifles throughout our history, I can't help but feel you're doing the situation a disservice with a comment like the one quoted above. Grown adult professionals with significant training have faced similar situations and failed to do as well as that 17 year old managed. Whether or not he had right or reason to be there -or do what he did- will get gnashed about in court, trust and believe. I sincerely hope he's acquitted of all counts.

Absent from those courtrooms will be the same gnashing over the rioters insurgents throwing molotov cocktails at business and other structures. Businesses and structures that have absolutely ZERO to do with the perceived injustice du jour.
Perhaps it's best for us to consider these situations as if those businesses were our own livelihoods before we make smug comments about staying in our own (rapidly shrinking) comfort and safety.

Thoughts?

[Bio]

I figured I’d help get this topic going because I think it’s discussion-worthy. I also recognize it has the potential to be relegated to the Romper Room fast, but I’ll give it a shot here.

The topic stems from the recent shooting incident in Kenosha, WI where a local-ish individual decided to come in, accompanying others, to help protect businesses. He was armed and eventually was attacked and defended himself with his rifle, killing 2 and wounding a third.

Most of us agree that when you go looking for trouble, you’re likely going to find it. As such, the consensus is avoiding the Stupid Trifecta and generally steering clear of identifiable problems. However, there also seems to be room for debate as to the current or continued viability of such practices of “minding your own business” in the face of the ever-expanding unrest.

JRB made an excellent remark on such in the “OIS in Kenosha” thread:



Thoughts?

Man, this is one of those things where you really don't want outsiders to handle your problems. They don't know the situation and the people involved and are likely to make it worse, and you're uncertain of their motives so you don't know what they'll do.

Until you really need them, and then you really need them.

Crappy non-answer, I know.

[HCountyGuy]

Man, this is one of those things where you really don't want outsiders to handle your problems. They don't know the situation and the people involved and are likely to make it worse, and you're uncertain of their motives so you don't know what they'll do.

Until you really need them, and then you really need them.

Crappy non-answer, I know.

I get where you’re coming from.

The thing about “outsiders handling your problems” is that other outsiders are also causing the problems. Unfortunately many LEAs are overwhelmed or having their hands tied to truly put a damper on things getting out of hand.

I’m not advocating cross-country travel or anything, but in the instance of Kenosha and Rittenhouse going there it was still relatively local to him. But we can remove travel nearly altogether if need be, and I’m sure even then if a truly local resides-in-city-limits were to go all Rooftop Korean on someone who’s demonstrably violent or even trying to burn buildings they’d be getting similarly harsh review by the media.

[blues]

Think Globally

Act Locally




Finally, makes sense.



I prefer to make a stand community by community...via the vote preferably, and, (down the road, if it comes to it), via whatever works to keep us safe and secure in our families and homes.

Of course, if it came to flat out civil war, God forbid, then you take your help where you find it. Let's hope that madness never comes to pass. We've withstood hard days before.

[peterb]

If you’re in a state like mine, where use of deadly force to protect property is not legal, what are you going to do? Go hands-on with a mob? Wait to be attacked and then claim self-defense?

“Looking for trouble and finding it” seems like an accurate description.

[Guerrero]

If you’re in a state like mine, where use of deadly force to protect property is not legal, what are you going to do? Go hands-on with a mob? Wait to be attacked and then claim self-defense?

“Looking for trouble and finding it” seems like an accurate description.

I'm in the same boat. However, someone about to lob a Molotov cocktail into your house (with you in it), would not be defense of property. That's the situation that I fear. Someone breaking in your front door is a hard line, but outside of that, it gets fuzzy.

[Zincwarrior]

Can you clarify as to what you are debating
?

[Casual Friday]

Minding your business when your neighbor decides to build a shed without a building permit is a good idea.

Minding your business when the towns, cities, and communities around you are burning and there is a Marxist insurgency in the nation, probably isn't.

I am very much a believer and follower of the 3 stupids rule, but I think it's unwise to sit back and look at people choosing to get involved in trying to save their neighboring communities as being a violation of the 3 stupids.

Look, I'm 40, I was never in the military, never been a cop, and I haven't trained with LAV since he was fat and shooting a Daniel Defense gun. I don't have a Frank Castle complex. I want to sit in my comfortable home, with my family, and enjoy my peaceful, boring life. There are people out there trying to take that from me. I am being called a racist for pointing out statistics that show that more white people are killed by the police every year than black people. I'm told that I don't have sympathy for black people because I refuse to call George Floyd a good person. It's not enough to acknowledge that he didn't need to die in the manner he did, and that Minneapolis PD handled it very very poorly. You have to raise him to Sainthood or you're a racist, white supremacist.

The idea of covering my face and hands and putting on my plate carrier and slinging my rifle and going to defend my community is frightening. It's uncomfortable. I don't want to do it. But the idea of letting this movement take more control of what they already have is more frightening. It's more uncomfortable. They have the support of all media outlets except a few, they have the support of all social media platforms, and they have the support of people holding high offices in this country. They have the support of mayors, DA's, prosecutors, Governors, Congressmen and women, Senators, Judges, and people running for President and Vice President.

Every time a justified or questionable shooting of a black person happens, cities burn. People lose their livelihoods. They lose businesses that they invested their life savings into. They're told it's just property. They're told they can just rebuild. They're told that their loss pales in comparison to the sufferings of the looters and rioters because of slavery and oppression. They're told they deserved it.

People are fed up. It's an absolute crying shame that it took a 17 year old kid smoking 3 communists before he was old enough to smoke cigarettes to really push back. What do us able bodied adults do? We get online and talk about how much it pisses us off to see this happening and what bag we're gonna carry our PDW in and where we can get another 10 cases of 5.56 then we turn on Netflix and get dumber and fatter while the world around us burns.

I don't know where the point of no return is, but I pray to God we haven't already reached it.

[Elwin]

I'm in the same boat. However, someone about to lob a Molotov cocktail into your house (with you in it), would not be defense of property. That's the situation that I fear. Someone breaking in your front door is a hard line, but outside of that, it gets fuzzy.

I wasn’t going to jump into the other thread but this is very similar to where I’m at. You won’t find me standing with a rifle outside any business, including my own place of work, to protect it. Deadly force in defense of material things simply does not fit in my understanding of morality - each human life on both sides is worth infinitely more than the property at issue. I’m completely unwilling either to kill or to leave my wife a widow to preserve any amount of “stuff.”

And I’d submit that anyone, “militia” or otherwise, who travels to a location for the express purpose of protecting property with deadly force is only making the situation worse by increasing the likelihood of greater violence.

I get that a business one built over the course of a lifetime is worth a great deal. I just don’t see how it’s worth cutting the lifetime of any person short. We’re all better off if the stuff burns but everyone wakes up alive the next morning to sort out the aftermath.

[JRB]

We're not dealing with people sticking a rifle barrel into a functioning legal system. Because that is absolutely vigilantism and it's in the state's interest to stomp that flat and uphold the law as written.

I firmly believe that the best and proper fix is to let LE do their job. 1A is profoundly important to me but we're not seeing LE brutally smashing bona fide peaceful protestors in broad daylight as they're holding signs and chanting slogans. We're seeing LE being assaulted and holding their ground 24 hours a day for weeks at a time with an emasculating amount of restraint, to the point where it only emboldens the bad actors.

So it's on local leaders to make announcements such as: 'Protest peacefully all you want during the day, and do so with my blessing and support and LE's involvement will only be to ensure safe traffic control and cordoning of city streets - but after curfew the LE is going to do their job as swiftly and effectively as possible with my full unconditional support, and the DA will prosecute everyone arrested to the fullest possible extent of the law'
'I support meaningful change and I want to hear everyone's voice, but if your message cannot be delivered without aimless violence and destruction then it is no message at all, it is simply evil - and if evil wants a conversation in violence, they will receive one'.

But instead we have Governors, city leadership, and even Police Chiefs of cities all over the US on twitter and CNN lamenting the UOF against an armed non-compliant rapist being shot by an LEO, and thereby tacitly allowing or openly encouraging more and more rounds of destructive violent rioting in the very cities they're sworn to protect. Because of politics and cameras the LEA's in those areas cannot or will not enforce law. DA's refuse to charge those who are arrested for any of it in astonishing violation of their sworn duties. As a result, violence and destruction run rampant with the tacit or openly touted blessing of all of those elected officials.

In which case, I say ALL BETS ARE OFF. We cannot even begin to criticize those who dare to protect neighboring American cities and towns when the law cannot or will not. Especially from the very same kind of aimless politically/socially balkanized violence we use our own military to prevent all over the world.

Unless, of course, one is that particular flavor of armchair asshat that expects the world to figure it out so they don't have to lift a finger, and thereby feels qualified to criticize the actions of folks who did put their skin in the game even when they came out on top.
I simply cannot parse how so many people can consider these actions made during a lawless violent riot through the same lens as a peaceful, functioning society with effective LE.