A proper traffic stop

[Magsz]

Sure. You're calling every officer who does it a different way an asshole who's wielding their authority like a club. That's your ego. You're getting worked up over other officers telling you that your approach is broadly condemned as no longer best practice, it's the Weaver stance of traffic stops. That's your ego. Keep using Weaver if you want, it can work...but it's not ideal. How you use you state you use your discretion and then portray others who use a different criteria is ego driven. That's ok, to a point. A level of ego is needed and desirable.


When you use the criteria of driving history, you're basing it on incomplete information. Has this person gotten a bunch of warnings before? Are they from a lightly patrolled area and just haven't been caught? Are they actually normally a careful driver and just screwed up this time? You've no idea. And none of it matters for this particular stop. The person did something that, by the objective criteria you or your department has established, warrants a cite or they didn't. That's your idea of fair and impartial. To others its basing your discretion on what those in the past did and on criteria that's irrelevant at the particular moment. That's not being Judge Dredd, that's having a different idea of what fair means.

Bud,

Couple of things.

1. Im not worked up, this is the internet. Were we having this discussion in person I can assure you we'd all be laughing quite a bit. At least I would hope that is the case as my interpretation of someone else's words led me to believe HE was getting pissed off. Even then, id still laugh.

2. You all are broadly condemning my approach so the reverse here is true. I made some, sweeping generalizations about certain types of law enforcement but that doesn't necessarily apply to you guys as ive never seen you work and it doesn't apply to a technique. I DO believe that even when you TELL the person what they did, you can be professional, polite and expedient. I have no problem with the technique that you guys are presenting, I even said that I was going to give it a whirl. My jack boot thug comment was directed more towards the jackasses that literally use the shield as a shield. Its only a matter of time before it catches up to them. I typify this group as the gruff, accusatory type so again, if my wording was off for that I apologize as I wasn't effectively able to convey my intent.

3. Driving history is only part of the equation, not its entirety. We don't have a written policy on how citations are to be written other than the fact that you damned well better have an actual traffic infraction as everything is audio and video recorded. The rest is up to the Deputy to decide.

[Magsz]

@UNM1136

I hope your lunch break was a good one. I can tell that you are passionate about your job simply by the level of effort you put into that post when you should be taking it easy and enjoying some food.

The biased based policing comment was more of a joke than anything poking at the judge dredd types that we have in my Agency. Again, it was alluding to the types that cant be bothered to be polite and professional and are more interested in telling people that they're wrong for their own sick pleasure or whatever the hell drives them. We ALL have those guys, no matter how large or small your department or agency is. I saw this early on in my career and it turned me off so much that it led me to where I am now which is why I use the script that I do. Can it be improved? Absolutely as I don't believe in stasis nor the weaver stance...im looking at you BlueI's you jackass. :P (said with a smile!)

I come from a customer service background prior to being a cop and I figured I would maintain that throughout this career as well.

[UNM1136]

@UNM1136

I hope your lunch break was a good one. I can tell that you are passionate about your job simply by the level of effort you put into that post when you should be taking it easy and enjoying some food.

The biased based policing comment was more of a joke than anything poking at the judge dredd types that we have in my Agency. Again, it was alluding to the types that cant be bothered to be polite and professional and are more interested in telling people that they're wrong for their own sick pleasure or whatever the hell drives them. We ALL have those guys, no matter how large or small your department or agency is. I saw this early on in my career and it turned me off so much that it led me to where I am now which is why I use the script that I do. Can it be improved? Absolutely as I don't believe in stasis nor the weaver stance...im looking at you BlueI's you jackass. :P (said with a smile!)

I come from a customer service background prior to being a cop and I figured I would maintain that throughout this career as well.

Then even if we don't agree to disagree, we can disagree without being disagreeable. We seem to have FAR more in common than we differ. You are right: we all work with assholes, but we should not become them. First and foremost, we are people, and then cops. We have bad days and are fooling ourselves if we think we haven't infected others with our bad days. Both brothers and sisters and the citizens we serve.

I have disassociated with brothers and sisters based on their behavior; blood, step, and blue.

Magsz, at the risk of seeming patronizing, your heart is definately in the right place. Once again, if what you do works for you, then keep it up. BBI, Trooper, me, and others think differently. I think @KeeFus narrowed it down the best of all of us....It has to be about the violation. Nothing else matters on that early morning road, not the who of the violator, nor their frame of mind, their history, or anything else we have discussed. How you excercise your discretion is your business. If you make a traffic stop, in today's litigeous society, with today's administration, today's press, and based on what anyone wearing a badge would consider ethics or morals, it has to be about the violation. You can be gracious, compassionate, even merciful with your stop, but you are ultimately stopping them for doing something in violation of the law...Otherwise why stop them at all?

Sorry, home now, getting ready for bed. Tired, and ready to start the weekend.

pat

[BehindBlueI's]

1. Im not worked up, this is the internet. Were we having this discussion in person I can assure you we'd all be laughing quite a bit. At least I would hope that is the case as my interpretation of someone else's words led me to believe HE was getting pissed off. Even then, id still laugh.

Probably, but like you said...it's the Internet. We can't divine what's behind the words, only react to the words presented to us. I think you got the result you did due to presentation you had. At least for me, I don't think I ever told you to not do it that way or that you can't do it that way, etc. Refer back to the Weaver stance analogy. My issue was you seemed dismissive and insulting toward the alternative that many presented and that's broadly considered best practice. I'm glad you're willing to give it a go and you're going to check out the Verbal Judo book.

*moderator hat on* I'd just ask that everyone remembers this is a public forum and calling groups of your fellow officers "assholes" and the like is in poor taste and borderline on the rules of the forum. If you think I am an asshole, I'm fine with you telling me that. If you think a particular officer is an asshole, or coward, or whatever, address it as you would in person. We're not going to broad-brush LEOs of any stripe or just for doing things different than us, though. *moderator hat off*

[blues]

"Excuse me sir, do you know why I stopped reading this thread?..."

[critter]

I've been pulled over three times in the last 25 years or so. All three stops resulted in warnings with one being written. None were for speeding, however.

While I was OTR Transporter delivering RV travel trailers and 5th wheels with my duelly:
1) Colorado: Rear window blocked by hanging clothes. I'm not even sure that's illegal considering the extended mirrors AND most of the time the rear window was blocked by a massive trailer behind me anyway. It seemed they were actually more interested in my auxiliary fuel tank actually being a fuel tank. They mentioned drug smuggling in fake tanks.

2) Deserted stretch of highway off an exit searching for food somewhere in Wisconsin: Pitch black, no other vehicles on the road, turning onto the hwy entrance ramp sans blinker and didn't notice the car hidden behind the closed gas station. Funny thing is, I peered into the blackness while reaching for the turn signal and said out loud "fuck it, who's going to see it anyway"...and someone did. When he asked "did you just forget?" I was completely honest and told him with a lighthearted tone fully expecting a citation, "Nope, I looked around the darkness, saw no other cars on the road and literally said "fuck it" with my hand on the blinker. It was indeed a deliberate act of defiance." Very cool guy actually, though he did give me a written warning, but also led me to a WaffleHouse a few exits down and we had breakfast together shooting the shit for a while. I think the graveyard shift up that way must get a bit lonely for someone to resort to my company.

3) Less than a mile from home local Deputy (one I actually didn't know): So, it appears that headlights are a necessary addition at dusk. Hey, it was still light when the journey began, driving home from Wallyworld having forgotten my wallet. Thought for sure I'd get a ticket for not having my license with me. Nope, just took my reg and ins back to his car for a couple minutes, came back and sent me on my way with something like, "Mr. Critter, it might be a good idea to turn on your headlights."

None were rude, disrespectful, or even smartasses, well, the latter two kinda were indulging in a bit of mild smartassery after the initial exchange, but in more of a jovial way than what is often depicted as the stereotypical 'smartass cop.' Just guys doing their jobs. All three told me their names and exactly why I was stopped when I rolled the window down. I'm definitely in favor of warnings!

[dragonmouse]

Louisiana Law:

Duties of Permittees
The permit shall be retained by the permittee who shall immediately produce it upon the request of any law enforcement officer. Anyone who fails to do so shall be fined not more than one hundred dollars. Additionally, when any peace officer approaches a permittee in an official manner or with an identified purpose, the permittee shall:
Notify the officer that he has a weapon on his person;
Submit to a pat down;
Allow the officer to temporarily disarm him.

The LEO will know the owner of the vehicle has a Louisiana Concealed Carry Permit when he calls the plate in before he approaches the vehicle.

Ok this might be a bit long but I believe in the end this is a training issue that applies to those of you that are tasked with that. I may take flak for my opinion and that's ok because I believe there is a bigger issue here than my own opinion. I drive a gravel truck between Ar. and LA. on a regular basis, hence the quote. I absolutely disagree, not with the ability of the officer to disarm solely in the way the law is written and here is why. I get a dot inspection about once a month give or take on this stretch of highway. (I am a co. driver not an owner). The regular officer comes up takes the dl and ccw out of Ar. and hands back the ccw. Never asks after the first time about a firearm and we proceed with the stop/inspection/whatever. Sometimes there are things that need adressing with the truck sometimes not but either way, citation or not we are both professional and doing what our jobs require. My driving record for what it's worth is spotless knock on wood from anything other than fixit stuff. A few weeks ago there were two of them, I don't really believe a trainee... maybe a supervisor or something, truly unknown. I had pulled off the road far enough that when approached I was able to open the drivers door killed the truck so I could hear, as I am several feet above them and that insures they see my seat belt is fastened etc. Hands on the wheel until asked for the info. I reached to the dash for my wallet in plain sight and handed over the cards. With no further conversation he immidiately said "I will have to disarm you for the duration of this stop" . I was floored, I had been smiling and could really care less that they had to do what they had to do, so I answered in this manner. Ok... we can sure do that but I have to ask why you would do such a thing. I would think handling a firearm on the side of the highway unnecessarily doesn't really make a lot of sense. I will comply but I can say that I am not comfortable with it. He replied where is it and I told him inside the waistband at 4oclock. He then tells me to unholster the firearm and hand it to him?????? I did so shaking my head and then he proceeded to muzzle me with my own firearm not once but twice before he cleared the truck and then multiple times to passing cars. Angry??? you bet I was livid, but knowing no good could come from any further interaction with him, I simply submitted to the stop. The other officer approached and did the inspection and I could not help but inform him that I had less than a good opinion about his buddy. As I said we had interacted before and he took what I said and the way I said it with pure professionalism. I got a sticker on the truck (sadly not the trailer) that keeps me from the random stops for a few months, and he returned my firearm at stops end. When we were done and I was free to go, the other officer was hanging around the drive wheels so I called him over and showed him a small book. I asked if he knew what it was. When he said no I explained it was a pocket constitution and I would be talking to his supervisor on the phone shortly and would he like it as I am sure that he may have need of it when I got done. His attitude was that I couldn't teach him anything and no he wouldn't take it. and stomped off. While I shouldn't have done that.... This is why that law is written in an ignorant way. It gives the attitude that leo's can disarm just because they can instead of being able to articulate a valid reason. Discuss or argue if you wish but I couldn't follow up with that call for days as the anger is still there and I don't know how to lose it. Sometimes there are just moron's in every profession I guess. But there it is. The guys here seem to be a bit more knowledgeable than that, and I thank yall for what you do.

[BehindBlueI's]

If you have a problem with an officer, address it with the department. This is not going to turn into a share your traffic stop story thread, good or bad. *technical forum*. Leo's are welcome to continue to discuss best practices. Any further story time posts will be deleted without further notice.

[iWander]

My Agency doesn't care if we issue cites or warnings.

Due to this fact I prefer to actually interact with the driver and I DO ask if the person is aware of the reason as to why I stopped them. There is a PERSON behind the wheel of that vehicle, not just a vehicle that somehow committed a traffic infraction on its own.

I gauge the individual, determine if they are aware of what they did and issue accordingly. People that begin to argue, fight, claim innocence and then make threats 50% of the time (I really dont like issuing citations) receive a citation. People that inform me "yes, I was aware that I did that" receive a warning. We have discretion for a reason and being able to exercise it instead of being a gruff to the point jackass without any kind of personality is one of the many reasons why people hate cops.

I'm not anyone's friend out there and im not looking to be friends, im looking to do my job and traffic enforcement is about education, not penalization. Its not personal on any level and i dont make it as such as i will not tolerate someone apologizing to ME. Im not interested in that. What im looking for is just a teeny smidge of personal accountability which we severely lack as a society.

In Florida where you can hire a ticket clinic and walk away with no points basically until the end of time means that serial offenders are always going to be serial offenders, they will never learn. The nursing student headed home from college through an area where she's never been will ideally, take away a pleasant interaction where she DIDN'T receive a citation and maybe remember to pay attention. Or not, I prefer to spend the extra thirty seconds showing the person that I'm not a jack boot thug. You CAN do this professionally contrary to the opinions of the old salt's who would rather break their own jaw than have to talk to someone at work...

This. You covered everything I was going to say. The violator is a person and deserves to be treated as one. And I'm not a robot. I'd much rather have them leave with a positive interaction regardless if they received a cite or a written warning.

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[HCountyGuy]

This. You covered everything I was going to say. The violator is a person and deserves to be treated as one. And I'm not a robot. I'd much rather have them leave with a positive interaction regardless if they received a cite or a written warning.

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Nowhere in this thread has anyone even hinted at treating the offender like a non-person. It’s a frikkin traffic violation, not a rape or murder.

The only dissention is relative to asking “Do you know why I pulled you over?” because it is considered a stupid waste of time. Last I checked, ignorance of the law isn’t an excuse. You can educate and warn or cite and still be professional.