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Thread: How Do Criminals Carry?

  1. #71
    LE Forum Moderator BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    My agency conducts preciously few murder investigations, so homicide totally isn't my lane. I also get that you do more general investigations in one year than I probably will ever do in my whole career.

    I understand what you're saying in that it's not a judgement call. As a frame of reference however, my training/overwhelming protocol at my last assignment was to never label a subject in reports as "victim" or any other label that assigns any connotation. It's simply Subject #1, Subject #2, etc. Never "Victim", "True ID", "Impostor", so on. This was true the first day at FLETC all the way through my ROIs and sworn documents.

    I can't speak on behalf of psalms, but I'm guessing this background might be where he's speaking from as well given both of our agencies go through FLETC and their Behavioral Sciences Division for casework management and they pushed that stuff hard when I went though. I get it when you explain it, but writing "victim" to me, in our context, is assigning a connotation and bias. I totally get that other agencies may do it differently, and that the meat & potatoes of developed information is obviously the important part.
    In the narrative or other freeflow parts of a report, sure. However for NIBRS if you select a crime or certain non-crimes like justifiable homicide, one of the involved people has to be selected as a victim of that. In our reporting software it's done via drop-down box. I'd also certainly never use "victim" when speaking to the shooting officer or press, but in internal Homicide paperwork the deceased is always "victim". You can be the "victim" of a justified homicide, in other words.

    I think most cops get this when it's in other contexts. How often have you used the words "True Victim" to differentiate someone from the run-of-the-mill "victims" who were victimized due to their lifestyle choices? Not in paperwork, of course, but in conversation with other officers, the prosecutor, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    If the deceased suspect assaulted or attempted to assault the officers the case can be investigated as an assault on the officer with the deceased designated as “suspect” and the officer as “victim.”

    I’ve seen it done that way on at least one occasion.
    It will certainly be investigated like that, but as far as reporting goes, I think that option was valid under UCR but not under NIBRS. If you haven't made the switch, NIBRS collects a lot more data than the old UCR reporting requirements. The following is from the NIBRS manual (emphasis added):

    09C Justifiable Homicide (Not a Crime)
    The killing of a perpetrator of a serious criminal offense by a peace officer in the line of duty,
    or the killing, during the commission of a serious criminal offense, of the perpetrator by a
    private individual
    Justifiable Homicide, by definition, always occurs in conjunction with a serious criminal offense
    (i.e., a felony or high misdemeanor). Agencies must report the crime that was being committed
    when the Justifiable Homicide took place as a separate incident.
    The definition of an incident
    requires all offenders to act in concert. Certainly, the criminal killed justifiably did not act in
    concert with the police officer or civilian who killed him; likewise, the police officer or civilian
    who killed the criminal did not act in concert with the criminal in committing the offense that
    resulted in the Justifiable Homicide. Therefore, Justifiable Homicide cases involve at least two
    incidents rather than one.
    If the “justified” killer committed another offense in connection with
    the Justifiable Homicide (e.g., illegal possession of the gun he/she used), the LEA should report
    a third incident.
    Valid Data Values for 09C = Justifiable Homicide
    LEAs can enter one circumstance per victim segment:
    20 = Criminal Killed by Private Citizen
    21 = Criminal Killed by Police Officer
    Example
    While resisting an arrest, a fugitive pulled a gun and fired twice in the direction of two police
    officers who were attempting to take the fugitive into custody. Neither officer sustained injury,
    but both drew their weapons and returned fire, killing the fugitive. Because this was a
    justifiable homicide, the agency should enter 21 = Criminal Killed by Police Officer.
    LEAs should enter one circumstance per victim segment:
    A = Criminal Attacked Police Officer and That Officer Killed Criminal
    B = Criminal Attacked Police Officer and Criminal Killed by Another Police Officer
    C = Criminal Attacked a Civilian
    D = Criminal Attempted Flight From a Crime
    E = Criminal Killed in Commission of a Crime
    F = Criminal Resisted Arrest
    G = Unable to Determine/Not Enough Information... In this case, the
    reporting agency should enter A = Criminal Attacked Police Officer and That Officer Killed
    Criminal.
    So it's recognized that the person was doing something that caused the homicide to be justified, but they are still the "victim" of the justified homicide.
    Last edited by BehindBlueI's; 07-20-2018 at 07:41 AM.
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  2. #72
    Member DMF13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypher View Post
    I don't know if I've ever seen this question asked on the internet before if it has been I apologize.

    So when you arrest a criminal with a gun do they carry in their pocket? Do they shove it in their waistband? Do they hide it in their sock? Do any of them use a holster? What has been your experience.
    They carry just like non criminals carry. Some have quality holsters. Some have crappy holsters. Some just shove it in their waistband, or pocket. Some have it in a backpack, purse, etc, etc, etc.

    It's foolish that some people, including some cops, believe that crooks never use holsters, only carry cheap guns, and that just because someone is licensed to carry means they're not a crook. We've arrested crooks with holsters, crooks with high end guns (that weren't merely steals), and even crooks who had a license to carry (they just hadn't been busted AND convicted before).
    Last edited by DMF13; 07-23-2018 at 01:33 AM.
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