American Rifleman: Testing the 38 Special

[5pins]

GJM donated some Lehigh’s XP’s in 10, .40, 9, and two in .45 for me to test. I’m hoping to start shooting them next month. It should providean indication on the penetration of this style of bullet across all calibers.

[ST911]

http://www.black-hills.com/shop/hone...-honeybadgerp/

[RevolverRob]

The 2-2.5" barrel gun is a tough realm to get reliable penetration and expansion from without excessive recoil. The benchmark to beat is the Remington +P 158-grain LHP. That's the round that generally gives the best performance out of snubs. The bullet I would have really liked to have seen tested is the Buffalo Bore standard pressure 158-grain LHP.

That said, the Federal HST did well here. I wish Federal would listen up and make the damn 147-grain HST bullet in .357" diameter @ 850-900fps. I'm willing to bet that load would deliver 13" of penetration, excellent expansion, and near perfect accuracy in all snubs across the board. It wouldn't be a light recoiling load, but I bet it wouldn't be as bad as the heavy Remington.

I should really pull a few 147-grain HSTs from 9mm guns and load them up over about 5-grains of Unique and fire them for penetration and expansion. That should get you right in the velocity wheelhouse and I'd be very interesting to see how the recoil and penetration/expansion was. Unfortunately, I know the accuracy will be meh with .355" bullets in a .357" diameter gun, but the idea is to see if a 147-grain bullet gains you anything over the 130s.

[RevolverRob]

http://www.black-hills.com/shop/hone...-honeybadgerp/

Wait...

Did Q LLC just rip-off Lehigh's design and have Black Hills load it?

[RevolverRob]

No, Black Hills licensed the HoneyBadger name from Q. No idea if the projectiles are from Lehigh or not.

It appears that the bullets were designed with Lehigh - https://www.personaldefenseworld.com...s-honeybadger/

That's good - because I was very confused.

[Tokarev]

The 2-2.5" barrel gun is a tough realm to get reliable penetration and expansion from without excessive recoil. The benchmark to beat is the Remington +P 158-grain LHP. That's the round that generally gives the best performance out of snubs. The bullet I would have really liked to have seen tested is the Buffalo Bore standard pressure 158-grain LHP.

That said, the Federal HST did well here. I wish Federal would listen up and make the damn 147-grain HST bullet in .357" diameter @ 850-900fps. I'm willing to bet that load would deliver 13" of penetration, excellent expansion, and near perfect accuracy in all snubs across the board. It wouldn't be a light recoiling load, but I bet it wouldn't be as bad as the heavy Remington.

I should really pull a few 147-grain HSTs from 9mm guns and load them up over about 5-grains of Unique and fire them for penetration and expansion. That should get you right in the velocity wheelhouse and I'd be very interesting to see how the recoil and penetration/expansion was. Unfortunately, I know the accuracy will be meh with .355" bullets in a .357" diameter gun, but the idea is to see if a 147-grain bullet gains you anything over the 130s.

I like your 147 HST idea and would be interested in how well that works.

Regarding the various 158gr "FBI loads;" Lucky Gunner tested several and they really didn't do so well.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/rev...llistics-test/

[RevolverRob]

I like your 147 HST idea and would be interested in how well that works.

Regarding the various 158gr "FBI loads;" Lucky Gunner tested several and they really didn't do so well.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/rev...llistics-test/

The Remington is the only load to consider for "FBI" loads, the Federal and Winchester are a heavier alloy that tends to not expand at snub velocities. And the Remington did okay. The only things that beat it from a 2" gun in terms of penetration and expansion is nothing - but the 125-grain Golden Saber and Winchester Rangers get close (more expansion less penetration). But neither of those rounds will hit to the sights on most J-Frames (regulated to 158-grain bullets) and hence why I tend to rank them down on the list overall. And why I argue that the Remington "FBI" load remains the standard to beat in .38 Special.

My other complaint, especially the Golden Saber is a truly "snappy" round to shoot. The Winchester Rangers and Speer Short Barrel Gold Dots also bite harder than the Remingtons.

Also why I'd love to see a 147-grain bullet @ 825-8500'ish. That should hit just about dead on to the sights, mimic the feel of the Remingtons, but give the bonded bullet performance that is needed.

[feudist]

The Remington is the only load to consider for "FBI" loads, the Federal and Winchester are a heavier alloy that tends to not expand at snub velocities. And the Remington did okay. The only things that beat it from a 2" gun in terms of penetration and expansion is nothing - but the 125-grain Golden Saber and Winchester Rangers get close (more expansion less penetration). But neither of those rounds will hit to the sights on most J-Frames (regulated to 158-grain bullets) and hence why I tend to rank them down on the list overall. And why I argue that the Remington "FBI" load remains the standard to beat in .38 Special.

My other complaint, especially the Golden Saber is a truly "snappy" round to shoot. The Winchester Rangers and Speer Short Barrel Gold Dots also bite harder than the Remingtons.

Also why I'd love to see a 147-grain bullet @ 825-8500'ish. That should hit just about dead on to the sights, mimic the feel of the Remingtons, but give the bonded bullet performance that is needed.

Back in the late 80s, Federal produced a +P 147 Hydrashock .38 for the FBI. It was intended to do better against barriers than the LHP. Never heard too much about it.

[RevolverRob]

Back in the late 80s, Federal produced a +P 147 Hydrashock .38 for the FBI. It was intended to do better against barriers than the LHP. Never heard too much about it.

There is this one - https://www.luckygunner.com/38-speci...l-le-50-rounds

Still occasionally in production. A little hot for a 2" gun, but my understanding is - it's close to LHP in penetration with more reliable expansion through barriers (as predicted). But it's really a load tailored for 3"+ guns. I believe this is the one called the "Treasury" load. But maybe one of our guys who has fired it in training can confirm that.

[revchuck38]

Back in the late 80s, Federal produced a +P 147 Hydrashock .38 for the FBI. It was intended to do better against barriers than the LHP. Never heard too much about it.

IIRC, it was a +P+ load. Wouldn't mind finding some for use in my M13.

ETA: Argh, Rob beat me to it.