That was me reposting my buddy’s Department preference (and his). My rifles have Trijicon Accupower 1-4 and 1-8. Also, from what I recall from folks like CS Tactical, second focal plane is preferred for LPVO (unless it’s a Nightforce 1-8... then FFP is awesome)Originally Posted by Clusterfrack
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Last edited by Sigfan26; 06-04-2018 at 10:17 PM.
Could you elaborate your need for a FFP scope on a work carbine?
In my post above, based on my experience, the rifle will spend the majority of its life on 1x, and if your needing to hold with the reticle for precision shots, you’ll be at 6x.
FFP is nice, as long as 1x is forgiving. The NF NX8 is not as good as the Vortex or Khales on 1x.
Why sacrifice 90% of what a patrol carbine is for to optimize 10%?
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The NX8 isn't as forgiving at 1x as the Vortex or Kahles but it certainly isn't bad. Saying that you are sacrificiy 90% is misleading since it is probably 80-90% as good.
You also get a few different advantages by making that sacrifice. The most obvious one with the NX8 is the size and is what you are really trading the eyebox for. If the size (and cost) doesn't matter go with the ATACR 1-8.
I think FFP is a huge advantage and this is where I think the "90% of what a patrol carbine is for" statement gets hazy. With a SFP everything between 1x and the top magnification is not very useful since the reticle isn't accurate. That makes it pretty much all or nothing so you are pretty much going to live at 1x unless you need a lot of magnification. With FFP that isn't the case. You can zoom in just a little for intermediate distances and still keep a wider FOV but get better ID capabilities and still have a usable reticle.
Reticle preference plays a part too. I would rule out Vortex right out of the gate because I strongly dislike their reticle choices. Kahles has a few options that are ok but I strongly prefer the NX8 mil reticle.
Every optic is a trade off in some way, you just have to decide what matters to you. If you are in an urban environment and will be clearing structures more than anything then performance at 1x is probably where you want to focus. If you live/work in a more rural area and have higher chances of needing to take intermediate length shots but still need to work in buildings occasionally something that is FFP may be worth the trade off.
If you are buying for duty use I'd suggest getting the ATACR and having the best of both worlds. I'm not LE and the ATACR was way over budget for me so I chose the NX8 over the Kahles because it fit what I wanted for this specific rifle.
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A couple of points:
Historically engagement distances for patrol carbines is well within 100yds.
I don’t think anyone would suggest that a LPVO is as fast and as forgiving as a red dot inside 100yds
With a 5.56 zeroed at 100yds you will not need a FFP optic until about 250-300yds. If your shooting a target at 300 yds that’s required the use of the reticle (head shot, tight window shot) you better be on 6 or 8x.
I think we, I’m included in this because I spend a lot of time banging long range steel, spend a lot of thinking of what if’s without considering the data from the GWOT (meaning making tight shots at 300yds under duress) and LEO engagements with carbines.
If your a police officer in an urban setting, a 300yd shot is HIGHLY unlikely. What’s more likely is something like I was recently a party to. A head shot at 5yds inside a home. For that you want the most forgiving eyebox, with a really good dot.
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Last edited by TCFD273; 06-05-2018 at 08:45 AM.
Great question, and one that I can't answer. My use of carbines has been limited to competition. When there are moving targets, FFP allows me to lead using the reticle at any magnification. There are plenty of situations where I like 4x better than 6. If I had an 8x scope, I'd definitely not want to have to use max mag to have my reticle be calibrated.
The NX8 doesn't look nearly as nice as the ATACR...
“There is no growth in the comfort zone.”--Jocko Willink
"You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
Some data: (second column from the left is drop in mils)
Black Hills Mk262 zeroed at 100yds with a 10mph constant left to right wind
62 grain load at 2950fps zeroed at 100yds with a 10mph wind.
My point to this is, a FFP optic is not a necessity for a patrol/swat carbine. Once you push out past 250 you will need the reticle to hold for a tight window shot. In that highly unlikely scenario, a ZERO FAIL scenario mind you, you need to be on 6 or 8x and be shooting from a stable position.
This past Friday I went 10 for 10 at 300 from a standing to seated position in under 30sec with a MRO on a 18” x 24” piece of steel. You don’t need a FFP much less a LPVO to do that. They are nice for target identification, precise shots at distance, and I personally find them easier to get hits while moving at 50yds or so.
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Last edited by TCFD273; 06-05-2018 at 09:49 AM.
Yes, the ATACR is very nice. I’ve looked through them, but haven’t put any real time behind the 1-8 ATACR. I shoot the 5x25 ATACR weekly and it’s my favorite to date.
I shoot 2 gun frequently, but I can’t recall any targets being past 300yds, most of the time they are setup inside 250 at my home range for multigun competitions.
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Magnification, eye relief requirements and required eye coaxiality with the center of an optic are NOT your friends on a patrol carbine in the overwhelmingly common circumstances present in the use of a CONUS patrol rifle.
Last edited by Wayne Dobbs; 06-05-2018 at 09:51 AM.
Regional Government Sales Manager for Aimpoint, Inc. USA
Co-owner Hardwired Tactical Shooting (HiTS)
I agree. In my AOR and in my mission set (SWAT/patrol) the ability to deploy a rifle with magnified optic makes sense. These include an active shooter in a large open venue, an active shooter on an elevated structure, and as a precision rifle analog when doing over watch. The ability to look into windows ans PID targets is also a huge plus.
I still would probably deploy an RDS equipped sight for 90% of my patrol use. The idea would be to have two rifles in my vehicle. This was also motivated by my primary rifle being rendered inoperable during training the other day(case failure).
Isn’t 18x24 unrealistically large for hunting or face shooting?
Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.
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