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Thread: FBI agent ND while dancing

  1. #221
    Hokey / Ancient JAD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sensei View Post
    .” Meanwhile, a simple 4X4 dressing and a cup of hot coco would have addressed the bleeding and resulting fainting spell.
    Because of his avatar I read everything of Sensei’s in Hanna’s voice. That made “and a cup of hot cocoa” very funny.
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  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    I guess I still don't understand how it wouldn't be SBI.

    Just because a doctor said it was a through-and-through doesn't mean there isn't a "susbtantial risk" for most of those things written above by the fact that a bullet entered your body. Just cause it didn't actually sever an artery or hit a vital organ doesn't mean you weren't at substantial risk for being killed when a person sent a bullet into your body, and it caused an injury that has a substantial risk of killing you or causing permanent loss, even if via infection, unless you seek professional medical attention. I don't know if I'm over thinking this or being too much of a simpleton.

    BBI, when you guys are discussing whether to charge BI/MBI/SBI, who makes the determination as to which category a GSW fits into?
    We would get around that problem (non-life threatening GSW) by using the language "uses or displays a deadly weapon" in our equivalent statute. It doesn't become simple assault just because the Defendant shot poorly.

    Colorado has similar enough language ("with the intent to cause bodily injury, he or she causes injury . . . by means of a deadly weapon"), though they require that the weapon's use cause some injury (whereas we can sustain a conviction based upon the threatened use, so long as evidence supports "imminent fear" of being shot/stabbed/etc.). My former state had language similar to my current state. I would imagine most states are similar enough in this respect.

  3. #223
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    I guess I still don't understand how it wouldn't be SBI.

    Just because a doctor said it was a through-and-through doesn't mean there isn't a "susbtantial risk" for most of those things written above by the fact that a bullet entered your body. Just cause it didn't actually sever an artery or hit a vital organ doesn't mean you weren't at substantial risk for being killed when a person sent a bullet into your body, and it caused an injury that has a substantial risk of killing you or causing permanent loss, even if via infection, unless you seek professional medical attention. I don't know if I'm over thinking this or being too much of a simpleton.

    BBI, when you guys are discussing whether to charge BI/MBI/SBI, who makes the determination as to which category a GSW fits into?
    Screening prosecutors.

    Substantial risk from the actual injury, not the potential injuries that could have happened. Shatter his knee, SBI. Miss his knee and gouge some calf muscle, not SBI.
    Last edited by BehindBlueI's; 06-14-2018 at 06:26 AM.
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  4. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gadfly View Post
    Say this exact same type of thing happens to anyone on here. Lets remove the booze issue, and say you were leaning back in your chair at a Chili's for lunch, and tipped over. Gun spills out. You frantically snatch it up.

    For the sake of discussion, lets say you are a mechanic (or a architect/car salesman/paint contractor/manager of Home Depot). If you are any other profession than LEO, would you lose your job over an accident? Not only lose your job, lose your ability to ever work in the industry again. Would the paint contractor be barred from ever getting a job painting houses again? I would dare say that the mechanic/car salesman/architect/lawyer/contractor would all still have a job, and would not be subject to loss of medical/retirement/employment.

    .
    If I was in the exact same circumstances, yes my employer would fire me.

    And again, in the exact same situation, I'd likely never be hired for the same job ever again and lose 3 X the income this guy is.

    Modern corporations will not tolerate behavior like this from their staff. Not one bit. Legal depts. counsel the HR dept and say " this guy is a liability" and from there you are shown the door.

    And because its on youtube, the news, and social media, other companies are going to review it as a matter of policy and practice. Modern companies scour social media and pay hefty sums to research people's backgrounds. Even bad credit can keep me out of a job.

    And I'd be stuffed in a cop car facing a near certain reckless discharge case. And a major civil suit.

    As bad as I feel for the agent I feel worse for the person who got hurt because of the idiocy on display.

  5. #225
    CWM11B
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    So, pretty much what is happening to the agent. I agree with you, many professions (doctors, corporate execs, nurses, etc.) would likely face ramifications more severe than most. The average Joe would not. I've seen it countless times. Bottom line, dude made a bad decision and he is paying a hefty price for it. I have no problem with him getting terminated. I have a HUGE problem with overcharging to make political hay. And that is with respect to anyone. I've been in plenty of heated arguments on what charges to seek on individuals that the majority of the membership here would agree is a flaming POS whom we would all be better off if they were dead. Not directing this at any member, nor should it be taken as condescending, but those of you not in LE would probably be surprised at the lengths the majority of cops go to insure appropriate charges are made, or no charges if the evidence does not support it. Plenty of folks are not charged with stuff we absolutely know did it, but the evidence is weak or otherwise inadmissible.

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by Sensei View Post
    It appears that the victim’s injury was a through-and-through GSW to the lateral aspect of the left leg. It did not result in fracture or neurovascular injury, nor did it require surgery.
    I haven't been following the case that closely. The Denver Post is reporting than an artery was hit. Is that erroneous?

    "The bullet hit the victim in an artery in his leg, according to previous news reports."

    https://www.denverpost.com/2018/06/1...-agent-arrest/
    Last edited by whomever; 06-14-2018 at 09:50 AM.

  7. #227
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    So an FBI agent's career is over, along with any chance of any kind of LE work in the future - and they're charging him with a felony?

    I can't help but put myself into both positions - as a new agent that made a very spectacular mistake, and as a guy that got a through and through GSW in a bar from it.

    As the new agent I'd have been much more concerned with where that bullet went, as has already been discussed. I would have been frantic about ensuring it didn't hit anyone and rendering aid if it did. Having heard gunshots in a loud nightclub before I can say that yes, you can hear gunshots over the music in a club so I'm sure he knew it had fired, if not only from the recoil.

    But as the victim, given that it'll be a fast pace to a full recovery, I can't help but think it's crazy to burn a Federal agent's entire life over something that.
    If I had been the GSW recipient in this situation and the GSW was the same simple fast-healing through and through wound as described here, the last thing I'd want is to see a bunch of money getting burned up trying to bury the guy under a felony conviction and ruin his life over it - especially since I can take it to the bank that the man isn't some evil criminal asshole that'll do this kind of thing again.

    Same goes for a civil suit. If I didn't have health insurance it'd be nice to have the doctor's bill covered, but I'm not sure that I'd ask for anything more. Shit happens, just because shit happened to me doesn't give me some sort of sanctimonious right to ruin someone's life and line my pockets with taxpayer's money. If anything, I'd just want to see this used as a teachable moment for controlling a dropped weapon, conducting yourself in public while carrying, etc.
    Am I just crazy for thinking this way?

    Also, if the victim didn't want charges filed, would that prevent the DA from filing charges in a case like this?

    Quote Originally Posted by whomever View Post
    I haven't been following the case that closely. The Denver Post is reporting than an artery was hit. Is that erroneous?

    "The bullet hit the victim in an artery in his leg, according to previous news reports."

    https://www.denverpost.com/2018/06/1...-agent-arrest/
    From what I've put together following this case, they're all going off of the report of the tourniquet and embellishing a little with each re-telling. I haven't heard any official source say an artery was hit, only that the victim was hit in the leg and another patron used a belt as an ad-hoc tourniquet.
    Last edited by JRB; 06-14-2018 at 10:06 AM.

  8. #228
    Member Gadfly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JRB View Post
    Also, if the victim didn't want charges filed, would that prevent the DA from filing charges in a case like this?
    .
    The state can press charges even if you don't want to. Think of every domestic violence victim. A woman with two black eyes and a bloody nose meekly saying she wont press charges on her husband. The state steeps in at that point and files the charges on behalf of the People of (insert state here). The don't always do it, but they can.


    As mentioned earlier in this thread, what actually occurred and what is eventually charged can vary WIDELY depending on the DA or AUSA you happen to be working with. Its a court system, not a Justice system. As mentioned in prior threads, the guy who was swinging a bat at my head was arrested for attempted capitol murder of a peace officer, but was convicted of deadly conduct (class A misdemeanor). The DA made the deal regardless of what I thought. I have had a guy on video offload an 18 wheeler full of dope. He gave a full confession on video and in writing. AUSA says its not enough to charge, seize the dope, let him go. Have found 2 kilos of dope on a warrant, and been told, "2 kilos makes me yawn, call the locals and see if they will charge him."... Had one of our guys cars rammed repeatedly by a crook trying to get away, but the AUSA would not charge him with assaulting the agent because our guy had his seat belt on, and since we drive unmarked cars, you cant prove he knew he was ramming into a cop. If you haven't worked inside the system, you will never understand the office politics in play. The Wire on HBO was the closest I have seen to how management, the courts, and city hall juggle numbers and manipulate crime stats. And even it was not quite right...

    What you see charged does NOT always reflect what happened. Sometimes its over charged, but more often, its under charged.
    Last edited by Gadfly; 06-14-2018 at 11:34 AM.
    “A gun is a tool, Marian; no better or no worse than any other tool: an axe, a shovel or anything. A gun is as good or as bad as the man using it. Remember that.” - Shane

  9. #229
    Interesting thought experiment. If he had not discharged the gun when picking it up, would he have been charged with anything?

  10. #230
    CWM11B
    Member
    Probably not. I would even go so far to say it probably never would have seen the light of day. Twenty five years ago it would absolutely remained a brief local story. This day and age every damned incident imaginable is an international story hyped to crisis level. I am increasingly coming to the point that I would not mourn (might even cheer) if the internet suddenly ceased to exist.

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