Shotgun skill standards and competition crossover

[ASH556]

Skill is skill. Shooting is shooting. That's what we say about pistol shooting all the time and why a USPSA GM is regarded as a highly-skilled pistol shooter and not "just a gamer." We have known standards and test by which we measure the skills of a pistol shooter. It may not be 100% perfect, but we have a pretty good idea at this point.

On the long gun side of the house we have some carbine tests and skills, although less than pistol. For closeup speed we have the VTAC 1-5, El Prez, etc. Bill Blowers @ Taprack has some stuff pushing you out to the 25yd line. Beyond that you have Defoor's carbine tests, but things start to get pretty narrow from there. We have "standards" that in my opinion and experience are waaaay too loose. For instance, most will tell you that a 2.5 sec carbine reload is really fast. I have video (unfortunately don't have his permission to post) of a friend doing a 1 reload 1 with a carbine and the reload is 1.3. He's sub 1.5 all day. I think we can and should do better at defining carbine reloads.

So on to the topic at hand: shotgun performance. In both the pistol and carbine realm, we've seen competition lead the way for performance of "tactical" shooters. Rob Leatham, TPC, others being hired by top tier units to teach them how to shoot pistols. The emergence of the LPVO for carbines, offset irons, etc, etc.

However, there seems to be very little competition crossover for shotguns. Just like anything else, there are things done with shotguns in competition that are not viable for a "tactical" or non-competition environment. However, most of it is and is just being ignored. For instance: on a platform where keeping the gun full is the hardest part of running it, why don't we ever hear about shotgun reload times outside of the competition realm? Things like Keith Garcia's "Load 12" drill are absolutely applicable to "tactical" shotgun shooting. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXslwiq9c8I&t=181s)

We have some real experts in house here too. @P.E. Kelley is a multiple world champion shotgunner. On the tactical side we have @Tom Givens and @jlw doing the rangemaster thing and then @TCinVA has his thing going on too.

I've got 27 minutes left to go in the P&S "The Gauge" modcast and while there are some good nuggets, I'm disappointed in the overall commentary, which seems to be that there's some mystery to shooting a shotgun that only the "Secret Fraternal Order of the Gauge" can enlighten us on. Yes, there are some things to know, but it's not all that hard (or I'm just totally lost). From my experience as an amateur 3-gunner, I finished top 30% in the shotgun stages of the last match I shot shooting alongside other state and world champion shooters. That means I have a basic understanding of how to shoot the gun, reload the gun, choose the right load for the job, the right choke for the load/target, and do it all while moving and under time pressure.

I really like the shotgun and want to attend some training, but my time and finances are both limited and from what I hear from a lot of the "tactical" shotgun instructors, it doesn't sound like anything groundbreaking to me.

[TheRoland]

I'm interested in some SME's thoughts here. My one baseless, no-evidence idea on the matter:

A competition shotgun is almost a completely different gun than a 'tactical' shotgun, specially barrel length, because one is throwing buckshot all the time and the other bird. While people run tactical-setup SBRs in 3-gun frequently, someone running a 14" SBS in competition is going to get very odd looks.

[ASH556]

Specifically talking about "action shotgun" meaning not flying targets, the only difference I see in equipment between a competition shotgun and a "tactical" shotgun is the length of the mag tube.

[farscott]

Specifically talking about "action shotgun" meaning not flying targets, the only difference I see in equipment between a competition shotgun and a "tactical" shotgun is the length of the mag tube.

I agree with the basic idea, but I see the following changes on some 3-gun shotguns:

1) Much larger bolt handle for autoloaders. In general, many of the controls are larger.
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2) Opened up and smoothed loading port.

3) As noted, the magazine tube length can be larger on a competition gun.

4) Barrels are longer on 3-gun shotguns versus tactical guns. 24"-26" versus 14"-18.5" on tactical guns.

5) Sighting equipment can be different, especially for slugs. Tactical guns usually do not have sight ribs.

As for practice, I find that classic games like skeet, trap, and sporting clays are beneficial, especially for learning to consistently mount and run the gun at speed. The mount, in turn, is dependent on the gun fit. With a sporting gun, the eye is the rear sight, so the fit is crucial. Tactical guns are usually a bit less forgiving with the caveat that shorter stocks are better for most people. Sporting guns usually are patterned and many shoot more shot above the point of aim so the barrel does not block the view of the target. Trap guns are a great example as they allow the shooter to float the bird above the rib.

The ammo is also quite a bit different as most people run the lightest loads possible (in autos that cycle the gun) whereas tactical guns are run with heavy loads, including slugs. Funny that training is usually done with bird shot loads.

Reloading the tactical gun is a lot more important than the sporting gun, especially as sporting guns are usually empty if not being shot and it is "not sporting" to have more than two rounds in the gun.

[03RN]

I use more practical shotgun stuff instead of competitive. Reloading a pump one at a time from a side saddle or soe micro rig while guys are quad loading their benellis is a laughable event.

Shotguns are the redheaded step son of our world. Don't expect to much.

In terms of time on drills? IDK. I'm interested as well. I'll have to try them with my shockwave

[jlw]

***I have never competed in 3-gun.***

From what I see on the interwebs, the 3-gunners run around with long tubes and belts full of shells set up for quad loading and syringe gripping of shells. The shooters blast away and then stoke the guns full at pre-planned moments.

In traditional defensive shotgun training, the loading is typically from a source on the gun (side saddle or butt cuff), the tubes are shorter, and the loading is either emergency loading or shoot-1/load-1.

I'm working on a set of standards that will be used for testing in my shotgun training. I don't know how much cross-over there will be between competition and defensive shotgunning. The primary use will be for an award system.

[TCinVA]

I've got 27 minutes left to go in the P&S "The Gauge" modcast and while there are some good nuggets, I'm disappointed in the overall commentary, which seems to be that there's some mystery to shooting a shotgun that only the "Secret Fraternal Order of the Gauge" can enlighten us on. Yes, there are some things to know, but it's not all that hard (or I'm just totally lost).

Ok.

I really like the shotgun and want to attend some training, but my time and finances are both limited and from what I hear from a lot of the "tactical" shotgun instructors, it doesn't sound like anything groundbreaking to me.

Most people teaching defensive use of the shotgun are doing so with shotguns that people actually use for self defense or duty use. With spare ammunition carried like it would be for self defense or duty use...which means a side saddle mounted on the gun or a butt cuff.

I don't own shotguns to run 3 gun, which means I don't own shotguns that have opened loading ports and I don't carry my reloads on belt rigs that are conducive to quad loading.

My classes are focused on using the shotgun as a defensive tool, which means I'm only teaching things like safe handling, proper ammunition selection for defensive use, mounting the gun, accuracy, recoil mitigation, using a shotgun around cover, using buckshot on moving targets, how to use the gun effectively in very close quarters, and manipulations that work for a wide variety of people even if they are wearing gloves or it's so cold their hands are numb. None of which is useful to a 3 gunner.

If you show up to my class to learn how to dominate the shotgun part of 3 gun, it would clearly be a waste of your time.

And I would certainly never dream of doing anything like running drills that require shooting accurately and performing a reload with a timer running. Because, you know, the Secret Order of the Gauge doesn't truck with that sort of thing.



(That most definitely didn't happen in 2.98 seconds or anything)

I certainly wouldn't explain to students that a fight is a limited time opportunity and make them perform tasks like firing on multiple targets with manipulations thrown in on a timer or anything. And I wouldn't have them shoot a dueling tree or a plate rack against one another. The Secret Order of the Gauge would revoke my blazer and membership fez if I subjected any of my clients to competitive and time pressure as a part of training them for defensive use of a shotgun.

I'd type more but I have to work on the tiny car I need to drive in the Secret Order of the Gauge parade.

[Tactical Black Belt]

I competed in a number of shotgun matches over the years. Because shotguns are so destructive the targets are generally a mixture of stationary clays in special holders or steel plates. It is not uncommon for many if not most of the shooters to complete a multi stage course without a single miss. It is very unusual for anyone to finish a typical pistol match with targets at roughly the same distance without several shots landing outside of the 8" down zero of a standard IDPA target. Shotguns offers a tremendous advantage over a handgun in practical accuracy at typical home defense distances.

[RevolverRob]

If I were going to pick anything up from competition shooting for shotguns, it would actually be the load two/quad load approach. Load two is probably the best one to go with, the caddies are compact and easy to setup.

But I wouldn’t do the flip the gun over at waist level thing.

Roll the stock up on the shoulder and use the strong hand to load two at a time, with the port practically in your face. That would allow you to rapidly top up a nearly empty gun.

For topping up a gun with one or two rounds fired, loading for the side saddle or butt cuff is the way to go, obviously.

If you want to think about ways to run a nearly empty shotgun quickly, look at what Cowboy Action folks are doing with port loading and how they stage shells in the hand. (If anything, the speed and simplicity of port load manipulations, keeps me focused on pump guns).

I guess the long and short is, I think you can find some competition skills that cross over, but they’re limited in their applications and will require practice and thinking to get them to work with a defensive gun.

But it’s really not hard to load two at a time, but it may mean breaking the gun from the shoulder to do so.

[BigT]

My primary use of shotguns is gaming, partially because as much as I love the Gauge I think realistically the likelihood of a civilian using anything except their carry gun in a defensive situation where I live is pretty slim. That said I do make sure to keep abreast of and train with a mind to defensive use.

Realistically I think the likelihood of a civilian home defender needing more rounds that the average pump or semi holds is somewhere between slim and fuck all. Yes shotguns don't hold many rounds. But what they do is hold very powerful rounds which are very unlikely to be used in the quantities 9mm or even 5,56 will be required. Not that I think its impossible or anything, just that when prioritizing skills , its far more important to prioritize the skills that will preclude the need for reloading.

If you are reloading it will likely be from a sidesaddle or butt cuff or similar , or by dumping the empty big stick and getting a pistol.

That said if someone could make a duty robust means of carrying rounds set up to load twins it would to my mind be ideal. Twins are faster and more robust than trying to load multiple rounds weak handed in my experience. The mechanics of the carrier are beyond my imagination though.