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Thread: Understanding Practical Application of Shotgun Patterning

  1. #1

    Understanding Practical Application of Shotgun Patterning

    Shotgun patterning is finding the spread of a specific load in a specific shotgun and has been described as being akin to zeroing a rifle. It's important to know how your shotgun will behave at various distances with the loads you use. Assuming I own a single shotgun the practical application of shotgun pattern makes a lot of sense to me. I would map out the longest distance inside my home (say 15 yards) and pick out a handful of the best Dentist-Approved loads such as FC Buck 1. I'd set a target to 15 yards and pattern with each and see how my particular shotgun works with that load. Then I'd stock more of that load and keep my single shotgun loaded with that specific ammo.

    Where I struggle is how to apply this concept to owning multiple shotguns and possibly using them outside a pre-determined location, where your max range is unknown. This post has various thoughts that go through my head about this topic. Please pick any individual points that you'd like to discuss.

    If I own a dozen AR15s, each with different barrel lengths and barrel twists, I can zero them all at 50 yards and be pretty confident I will hit my target out to 220 yards or so. I wouldn't have to memorize which gun acts in which way with a specific load because the zero of the gun takes care of that. I know at 50 yards all dozen ARs will hit the same point and I know at closer ranges all dozen ARs will need to be held a bit high to compensate for height-above-bore dynamics, and I know the general trajectory will be an arc with the first zero being at 50 and the second zero being somewhere in the range of 200. There's no complex math I have to remember for real-world carbine distances. If I was shooting targets at 300+ yards then it would require some math, but those situations are unheard of for a civilian outside of a marksmanship shooting drill, where you will have time to perform holdover calculations.


    Load Selection

    With shotguns, I don't have a good understand of the practical nature of patterning when you own multiple and may use them at unknown locations/distances. Suppose I own a 14" SBS, a few 18.5" pump guns, and a 20" pump gun. One strategy could be that I buy a few dentist-approve loads and fire them through each gun, and then pick the load that has the tightest possible pattern for that gun, and that's what I use for that gun. This takes care of the unknown distance outside-the-home situation because I know I've optimized each gun for maximum distance. Hopefully, all guns will pattern tightest with FC Buck 1 for simplicity reasons and because as of 2019 it's considered the most effective load.

    Suppose FC 00 patterns tightest with a particular gun, then I have to decide if the tighter pattern compared to FC Buck 1 is worth the decrease in effectiveness. The decrease in effectiveness is probably marginal, so if 00 patterned tighter out to an extra 5 yards, then it might be worth the tradeoff. I don't have enough real world experience to know how to perform this calculation.


    Shotgun Use Factors

    Another factor to consider is if the gun is meant to be a dedicated home gun, and it's a short distance, such as an apartment, perhaps you want a load that isn't as tight. For example, suppose your apartment max distance is 10 yards for a straight shot. And suppose FC Buck 1 patterns to a 1" hole at 10 yards in your particular gun. Perhaps switching to a load that patterns out to 3" might be more effective in this situation. Question for the SMEs: is there a pattern size that is considered optimal? I believe everyone agrees a pattern that's too big is suboptimal, and I believe at least some people argue that a pattern too small is also suboptimal if it doesn't expand at all. Is there a happy medium, perhaps 3" where if you were sure the distance was relatively short, then might pick a load with extra spread so it opens up at least a little bit? Or is it always better to have the smallest spread possible, even if that spread is zero and it's a sub-1" pattern?

    If patterning optimization isn't just for smallest possible pattern, do you stock multiple loads for each shotgun, such that Load X would give you a nice 3" pattern at 10 yards (max apartment range) and Load Y gives you only a 1" pattern at 10 yards but stays tighter out to 25. So you keep the gun loaded with Load X for apartment defense, but still have some Load Y on hand in case you make a conscious decision to go outside with it for whatever reason and if you have time to swap loads (let's ignore the reasons to go outside because as a civilian defender I think those reasons are extremely limited).

    Do you have to remember or keep a notebook of how each of your different shotguns patterned with your specific load of choice? Do you make a note on the buttstock or anywhere on the gun itself? Suppose each of your half dozen 18.5" pump guns patterned the same load differently. Some of them kept FC Buck 1 tight to 25 yards. Some were only good to 20 yards. Do you make a note on the gun itself "this one is good to 25" or do you go with lowest common denominator and say "I will never shoot any of my 18.5" pump guns past 20 yards because even though some can pattern tight to 25, a few are only good to 20, and I can't expect myself to remember under stress which is which, so I'll max out at 20."

    Does patterning even matter that much because if you need to take a life-or-death shot and the threat is at 25 yards, are you (a) going to be able to estimate distance under stress and (b) going to care if you might throw one or two fliers given the only other alternative is surrendering and possibly getting murdered? Assuming you don't have slugs on board for a slug select drill. Or is patterning only meant to be considered in advance, such that you will only choose a gun and load for defensive purposes that patterns out to the proper distance of your home? So no real-time decision making is necessary? This doesn't apply to LE who might be engaging suspects in unknown locations at unknown distances.


    Training Considerations

    It seems that a distance drill might be useful for LE where you are outside on a course of fire at unknown distances (to the shooter) and you have to determine if you can make the shot and pattern appropriately on target. Perhaps with an extra layer that different targets have different acceptable pattern misses. For example if the backstop is a preschool, then you might be less willing to take the 30 yard shot than if the backstop is a secluded mountain. The COF would have to take that into account. Is there any drills like this that exist so I don't have to reinvent the wheel?


    Final Thoughts / Questions

    In sum, I understand that patterning is useful to select the proper load for your specific shotgun, because I hear SMEs say that even the same shotgun length barrel from the same manufacturer will shoot loads differently. What I don't understand is:

    Given the most ballistically optimal dentist-approved load (currently FC Buck 1), how do you decide on using a ballistically suboptimal load to get a better pattern?

    If short ranges are guaranteed, due to being an apartment defense situation, do you ever want to use a load with a bit more spread under the limited ranges of that home?

    How do you track patterning all of the shotguns you own and how do you use that information? Just to select the load and forget about it? Or do you remember max distances you can shoot each particular shotgun? Or do you take the lowest common denominator and never shoot any of your shotguns past that distance to be safe?

    How do you drill distance recognition and whether your known pattern will be effective at that distance?

    Are slugs always necessary to have on board in a side saddle or buttstock pouch to allow for slug select drills if the distance to threat is further than the pattern allows? Possibly different answer if you live in a home with fixed distances (maybe no slugs needed) versus if you live on a farm and might be outside or are LE and serving high risk warrants (maybe always need slugs on board)?

    Perhaps I need to analyze why I own multiple shotguns to better assess how to handle patterning. I only need one home defense shotgun. The rest are spares. So perhaps it only really matters how the primary home defense shotgun patterns within my current home, and then I pattern the rest to keep on file in case they become the primary shotgun.

    What other practical application uses of shotgun pattern didn't I cover?
    Last edited by powell556; 02-26-2019 at 03:09 PM.

  2. #2
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Lots to digest here (and since I'm procrastinating from work let's look at some of it):

    One strategy could be that I buy a few dentist-approve loads and fire them through each gun, and then pick the load that has the tightest possible pattern for that gun, and that's what I use for that gun.
    That's exactly what you do. You pattern each gun at your preferred engagement distance (I'm still a 25-yard guy). And pick the load that keeps all the pellets on the target at that distance for the given gun. "Every shotgun is a snowflake" is a rhetorical statement that is very true. It's impossible to know for sure if each gun will shoot the same load the same way. Chances are, they won't. This is one reason I'm an advocate for screw-in chokes (others disagree), in that you can pick the load and adjust the gun to shoot it. In the case where you cannot do this - you have no choice but to identify what works best in the gun in question.

    Given the most ballistically optimal dentist-approved load (currently FC Buck 1), how do you decide on using a ballistically suboptimal load to get a better pattern?
    Everything over #1 buck (i.e., 0, 00, and 000) have sufficiently good efficacy to not worry about ballistics. Lots of people opt for "ballistically suboptimal" loads by choosing reduced recoil over full power buckshot, for instance. The goal is to get all the pellets into the target and pushing in at least 12" and preferably closer to 18" (in gel). The load you choose is the one that gets all the pellets into the target. Accuracy > All Other Factors

    If short ranges are guaranteed, due to being an apartment defense situation, do you ever want to use a load with a bit more spread under the limited ranges of that home?
    I do not. Maximum shot distance in my apartment would be about 12 yards. At that distance, the Hornady Crit Defense I use will have maybe golf ball sized patterns. If your load is effectively a "slug" at close distances, that's not necessarily a bad thing for terminal performance (slugs work very well in terms of terminal performance). The issue is making sure you don't miss. So...don't miss. Accuracy > All Other Factors.

    How do you track patterning all of the shotguns you own and how do you use that information? Just to select the load and forget about it? Or do you remember max distances you can shoot each particular shotgun? Or do you take the lowest common denominator and never shoot any of your shotguns past that distance to be safe?
    Notebook with notes for each gun. I shoot buck in 5-yard increments, until less than 80% of the pellets hit the target (USPSA Metric). That's my maximum engagement range (that's usually 30-40 yards). My minimum accuracy requirement is 100% pellets onto the target at 25 yards. I'll keep working through loads and chokes until I get that with a gun. Because Accuracy > All Other Factors.

    How do you drill distance recognition and whether your known pattern will be effective at that distance?
    Distance assessment is probably among the hardest skills. How do you do it with a rifle? Small targets at long(er) ranges, until you can't hit them effectively. Some folks solve the problem by keeping buck in the gun inside and going to slugs outside. I don't think that's necessarily a bad idea.

    I admit, I use a laser range finder to get known distances for various permanent markers. For instance, think about from your front door to the street or mailbox. What's that distance? From the front door to the farthest corner of your yard? Etc.

    You can also learn to gauge distances be remembering a few things about our world in general - Sidewalks are typically poured in 5-foot sections (~1.5 yard) and are 5-6 feet wide (5 feet if there is grass between you and the curb, six feet if the sidewalk goes up to the curb), and dashed stripes on the road are 10-feet apart.

    However you do it, you need to learn to do it, because Accuracy > All Other Factors.

    Are slugs always necessary to have on board in a side saddle or buttstock pouch to allow for slug select drills if the distance to threat is further than the pattern allows? Possibly different answer if you live in a home with fixed distances (maybe no slugs needed) versus if you live on a farm and might be outside or are LE and serving high risk warrants (maybe always need slugs on board)?
    If I take a shotgun outside to do anything besides shoot birds (i.e., as a weapon) I take some slugs. Slugs work inside of 25-yards just fine and outside of that distance a whole lot better than buckshot. Since Accuracy > All Other Factors if you believe for any reason your engagement distances may be beyond buckshot range, keep slugs with you as an option.

    ____

    So to summarize Accuracy > All Other Factors.
    Last edited by RevolverRob; 02-26-2019 at 03:30 PM.

  3. #3
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by powell556 View Post
    Shotgun patterning is finding the spread of a specific load in a specific shotgun and has been described as being akin to zeroing a rifle. It's important to know how your shotgun will behave at various distances with the loads you use. Assuming I own a single shotgun the practical application of shotgun pattern makes a lot of sense to me. I would map out the longest distance inside my home (say 15 yards) and pick out a handful of the best Dentist-Approved loads such as FC Buck 1. I'd set a target to 15 yards and pattern with each and see how my particular shotgun works with that load. Then I'd stock more of that load and keep my single shotgun loaded with that specific ammo.

    Where I struggle is how to apply this concept to owning multiple shotguns and possibly using them outside a pre-determined location,
    That's where Federal Flight Control will come in.

    I have a shitload of shotguns. While each of them performs a little bit differently, I'm comfortable enough using FFC in any of them because FFC patterns well enough in all of them up to 25 yards to keep pellets on a human target.



    Load Selection

    With shotguns, I don't have a good understand of the practical nature of patterning when you own multiple and may use them at unknown locations/distances. Suppose I own a 14" SBS, a few 18.5" pump guns, and a 20" pump gun. One strategy could be that I buy a few dentist-approve loads and fire them through each gun, and then pick the load that has the tightest possible pattern for that gun, and that's what I use for that gun. This takes care of the unknown distance outside-the-home situation because I know I've optimized each gun for maximum distance. Hopefully, all guns will pattern tightest with FC Buck 1 for simplicity reasons and because as of 2019 it's considered the most effective load.

    Suppose FC 00 patterns tightest with a particular gun, then I have to decide if the tighter pattern compared to FC Buck 1 is worth the decrease in effectiveness. The decrease in effectiveness is probably marginal, so if 00 patterned tighter out to an extra 5 yards, then it might be worth the tradeoff. I don't have enough real world experience to know how to perform this calculation.
    You will not encounter a noticeable decrease in effectiveness swapping between a #1 FFC load and, say, an 8 pellet 00 FFC load. They are both overkill on an un-armored target. The #1 load is just a little more overkill. If you shoot someone with the 00 load the police won't be loading him into an ambulance saying "If you'd just used #1 we'd be calling the coroner!"

    Where you may have some concern is with overpenetration. The heavier 00 pellets will penetrate further. As an example, in my last Skills class we had the luxury of some clear ballistics gel. Not as good as the real thing but the point was to show a class what different types of weapons will do, and even what different loads will do. About 1/2 of the #1 FFC pellets stayed in the gelatin blocks where all the 00 pellets went entirely through. If concern about overpenetration is key for you, the #1 load is a better choice.


    Another factor to consider is if the gun is meant to be a dedicated home gun, and it's a short distance, such as an apartment, perhaps you want a load that isn't as tight. For example, suppose your apartment max distance is 10 yards for a straight shot. And suppose FC Buck 1 patterns to a 1" hole at 10 yards in your particular gun. Perhaps switching to a load that patterns out to 3" might be more effective in this situation. Question for the SMEs: is there a pattern size that is considered optimal?
    Optimal for a given set of circumstances, perhaps...but there's no law of optimal buckshot pattern.

    Personally I would like a pattern no bigger than the span of my hand at the max distance I anticipate using the load. If the longest shot in my house is 10 yards and I have a load here that offers a pattern size that is no bigger than the span of my hand at that distance and there's a good concentration of pellets within that pattern, I'd be happy.

    That being said, you can go down a deep rabbit hole on pattern sizes because most of the time with a decently performing load you don't see spread start until ~ 7 yards or so. With a shitty load you see spread even sooner...and that spread usually comes with a poor pattern concentration meaning you aren't seeing the pellets congregate around where you placed the sight.

    I believe everyone agrees a pattern that's too big is suboptimal, and I believe at least some people argue that a pattern too small is also suboptimal if it doesn't expand at all. Is there a happy medium, perhaps 3" where if you were sure the distance was relatively short, then might pick a load with extra spread so it opens up at least a little bit? Or is it always better to have the smallest spread possible, even if that spread is zero and it's a sub-1" pattern?
    There is no right answer to that question. You have to make your own judgement.

    At home I keep a Beretta 1301 loaded with #1 FFC. It shoots a pattern smaller than the 2 3/4" of a shotgun shell in my gun out to at least 7 yards. I'm fine with that.

    A key factor is that in terms of civilian self defense or even typical LE use we aren't using the spread of buckshot to increase our hit potential. We are using multiple projectiles for maximum effect on target to stop a threat as quickly as possible...and we need to make sure that the only thing that catches pellets is the bad guy.

    If patterning optimization isn't just for smallest possible pattern, do you stock multiple loads for each shotgun, such that Load X would give you a nice 3" pattern at 10 yards (max apartment range) and Load Y gives you only a 1" pattern at 10 yards but stays tighter out to 25. So you keep the gun loaded with Load X for apartment defense, but still have some Load Y on hand in case you make a conscious decision to go outside with it for whatever reason and if you have time to swap loads (let's ignore the reasons to go outside because as a civilian defender I think those reasons are extremely limited).
    I buy FFC by the sleeve. #1 when I can get it, 8 pellet when I can't. 9 pellet just to keep some for classes so people can see the 9th pellet flyer syndrome happens even with FFC.

    That being said, I would suggest that you pick two guns that you use for defensive purposes and sort out a load that works well enough for your purposes in either of them and stick with that.

    Does patterning even matter that much because if you need to take a life-or-death shot and the threat is at 25 yards, are you (a) going to be able to estimate distance under stress and (b) going to care if you might throw one or two fliers given the only other alternative is surrendering and possibly getting murdered?
    I doubt people will be able to judge distance to the yard...which is another reason I'm a fan of FFC. But you can do a lot for yourself as an ordinary joe by actually looking at various distances in and around your house based on landmarks to give you some idea of range estimation.

    My concerns are:

    - Keeping my pellets in the bad guy
    - The possible need to engage a threat entangled with a non threat

    The second of those concerns is more common than people imagine in the context of home invasions. Police use as well.

    Given the most ballistically optimal dentist-approved load (currently FC Buck 1), how do you decide on using a ballistically suboptimal load to get a better pattern?
    "ballistically sub-optimal" would be using something like #4. If you are using #1, 0, 00, or 000 then what you are hitting dude with will be plenty good enough to take the starch out of his bloomers. What you want to be careful of is overpenetration: pellets hitting dude and going entirely through him. The odds of that go up as you increase the size of the shot.

    If short ranges are guaranteed, due to being an apartment defense situation, do you ever want to use a load with a bit more spread under the limited ranges of that home?
    If that's the context of where you are going to take the shot, sure. Find the pattern that makes you happy and go with that.

    How do you track patterning all of the shotguns you own and how do you use that information? Just to select the load and forget about it? Or do you remember max distances you can shoot each particular shotgun? Or do you take the lowest common denominator and never shoot any of your shotguns past that distance to be safe?
    I use FFC and I know that I'm good with any shotgun I pick up to at least 20 yards.

    How do you drill distance recognition and whether your known pattern will be effective at that distance?
    I shoot various distances pretty often with other weapons. That experience tends to cross over.

    Are slugs always necessary to have on board in a side saddle or buttstock pouch to allow for slug select drills if the distance to threat is further than the pattern allows? Possibly different answer if you live in a home with fixed distances (maybe no slugs needed) versus if you live on a farm and might be outside or are LE and serving high risk warrants (maybe always need slugs on board)?
    That is going to depend on your situation. I'm not going to be taking shots with my shotgun that are more than 15 yards in my domestic situation. I feel no need to have slugs on my gun.

    If I potentially needed to defend livestock from coyotes, I would certainly have a couple of slugs on my gun.

    If I was doing LE vehicle takedowns I would certainly have slugs on my gun if not loaded in my magazine as my only munition.

    Etc.
    3/15/2016

  4. #4
    Member ubervic's Avatar
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    DISCLAIMER: I come from over 20 years of clay shooting and have zero experience with defensive shotguns or their use.

    Having said that, I think you're unnecessarily over-thinking things. Be careful not to assign or conflate the attributes of pistol shooting to shotgun shooting. Shotguns are more forgiving than are pistol or rifles, for example. When you fire a shotgun, you are projecting a shot cloud/string rather than a single, small projectile.

    In a general sense, patterning a shotgun is helpful to A) determine the point of impact relative to point of aim and B) determine the density of the shot pattern for a given load at a given distance. These two points of reference help you understand optimal aspects of your shotgun performance with that load----but they should not serve to restrict or prevent shooting outside/beyond that performance "sweet spot."

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    This is one reason I'm an advocate for screw-in chokes (others disagree), in that you can pick the load and adjust the gun to shoot it.
    A few questions on chokes:

    I heard that if you use a choke, you can't run a slug because the slug will blow out the choke. I did a little google searching today and random internet people seem to be split, some saying you'll blow it out, and some saying that only happens if you use the wrong sized choke or it's installed wrong. Which is correct?

    All of my shotguns are "tactical" models that do not have choke threading. Is it reasonable to have a choke put into a 14", 18.5" or 20" so-called tactical shotgun?

  6. #6
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by powell556 View Post
    A few questions on chokes:

    I heard that if you use a choke, you can't run a slug because the slug will blow out the choke. I did a little google searching today and random internet people seem to be split, some saying you'll blow it out, and some saying that only happens if you use the wrong sized choke or it's installed wrong. Which is correct?

    All of my shotguns are "tactical" models that do not have choke threading. Is it reasonable to have a choke put into a 14", 18.5" or 20" so-called tactical shotgun?
    Slugs through any choke tighter than an Improved Modified is advised against. Shooting slugs up to IMod, I’ve never seen a problem. Some argue you can shoot slugd through light full and full, I’m not that brave. Besides, chances are good your buckshot will pattern best somewhere between Improved Cylinder and Improved Modified - if you’re using a choke.

    Most shotgun barrels can be threaded for chokes, regardless of “tactical”. But before I went through the cost and effort of having chokes put into a gun, I’d follow TC’s advice and pattern a bunch of Flite Control buckshot.

    The 8-pellet low recoil Federal, the #1 low recoil Federal, and the 8-pellet full power Hornady Critical Defense (uses the versatite wad, basically a different colored flite-control wad) are the ones I’d try. 9-pellets tend to get a flier at longer distances. I’d bet one of those three loads will make you happy. And it’s cheaper to buy ammo than thread guns for chokes.

    I like chokes in a gun. It gives you more versatility and utility. But, I’m also fine running FC-type ammo in my non-choked guns.
    Last edited by RevolverRob; 02-26-2019 at 09:36 PM.

  7. #7
    I do not disagree with the generally accepted SME opinion that the purpose of buckshot isn't to make a wide pattern to allow for poor accuracy, but the purpose is to put all the rounds into the bad guy to cause him to stop due to massive trauma. The reason we don't use slugs is because, per the Dentist, the slug may overpenetrate and go through the badguy. Also, slugs are more likely to over penetrate interior walls than buckshot.

    I am on board with that, but the sake of full comprehension, let's play devil's advocate and explore the opposite opinion.

    The primary goals in a defensive shooting are (1) to stop the threat (2) without hurting anyone else, and of much lower importance, (3) reducing property damage. So we need to put enough force into the bad guy to make him stop, and we need to keep that force from going anywhere but the bad guy's body.

    If we assigned weights to each of those three goals, reducing property damage is a far bottom, but stopping the threat and hurting anyone else could be argued in either direction. If you don't stop the threat, then you'll die and have your gun taken from you. But if you're reckless, you might wind up shooting your neighbor through the window or your child in the other room. But if you die, the bad guy strips you of your gun and your child is now defenseless, so I have to put a bit more weight on stopping the threat. Of course, stopping the threat responsibly is the ultimate goal, but if we had to separate them out, that's how I weigh them.

    Suppose you lived in a cabin alone in the middle of a desert with 12 foot high concrete walls around your cabin and no one for 10 miles. And a bad guy kicks in your door. In this extreme situation, the risk of hurting anyone else is virtually zero. In my non-expert opinion, in this situation, I might put the optimal spread at 12" because if I do my job and hit center mass, then I still get all the pellets into the bad guy's chest, and they probably did more diverse damage, leading to a more likely one-shot stop (even though I recognize one shot stops are likely with a 2" spread).

    The benefit to the 12" spread would be that if I miss the middle and the center of the spread is just off his chest, then I still hit him with 3 to 5 pellets of #1 Buck. Compare 3 to 5 pellets with zero if I had a 2" spread. I put 10 to 12 rounds of buck into the cabin wall, but we've established the risk to others is virtually zero in this hypothetical situation.

    Now extend the hypothetical situation to a more realistic but similar one. A person lives alone in a house with solid construction. Or possibly a wife with no kids and you and your wife are together in your bedroom so no risk of shooting any friendlies in your house. Neighbors are not abutted right next to your property line. The risk of errant buck shot hitting a human that isn't the bad guy seems really low. I get that bullets do weird things, but I'm talking probabilities here.

    In that situation, is a 12" spread bad? If you hit dead center, all pellets would go into the target. And if you miss a center shot, the risk to others is super small, but you still hit with a few pellets which is better than zero. Of course that 12" would need to be spread at max distance inside your home.

    Let's assume the identical scenario but you are using FFC and running a 3" spread. And you do miss by a few inches. Now all 15 pellets are going off errantly. Whereas with the 12" spread, only 10 to 12 of those pellets might go off errantly on that same shot. Then again, suppose you would have a solid hit with 3" spread that was on the fringe of the bad guy's chest. All 15 shots would go into him with 3" spread but with 12" spread, you'd have a few fliers. So we'd have to compare liklihood of missing completely by a couple inches versus getting a solid shot on the fringe of the chest. I haven't thought this fully through but my gut tells me I'm more likely to hit on the fringe of the chest wall than to miss completely, if I'm aiming center mass.

    Let's explore overpenetration through drywall. I'm not an engineer, but it would also seem like the 12" spread is less likely to overpenetrate interior walls than a 3" spread that misses the target. Because the 3" spread will put all of the force into 3" diameter of drywall (0.05 square feet). Whereas the 12" spread puts the same force into .79 square feet. That's 16x more surface area for the larger spread for the same force. I have not done any testing (although I'd love to do some and may try someday), but it would seem there is a higher likelihood of overpenetrating if the spread is smaller because the entire drywall chunk might break due to structural integrity issues.

    I do personally buy into the commonly accepted theory of tighter spread is better, less likely to hurt anyone else and it's better because you have possible unknown distances. But my devil's advocate analysis seems compelling. I respectfully request that counter point be argued against for discussion purposes.
    Last edited by powell556; 02-26-2019 at 09:43 PM.

  8. #8
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by powell556 View Post
    A few questions on chokes:

    I heard that if you use a choke, you can't run a slug because the slug will blow out the choke. I did a little google searching today and random internet people seem to be split, some saying you'll blow it out, and some saying that only happens if you use the wrong sized choke or it's installed wrong. Which is correct?
    A single slug or even a few slugs through a gun with a tight choke (like full) won't blow the barrel out. Now feeding a gun with a full choke a steady diet of slugs is not a splendid idea...but people dramatically overstate the damage potential of shooting slugs.

    All of my shotguns are "tactical" models that do not have choke threading. Is it reasonable to have a choke put into a 14", 18.5" or 20" so-called tactical shotgun?
    It depends on what you want to do with it.

    Chokes are intended for use with various types of birdshot to control the size of the pattern in order to hit the target you want to hit. If you are shooting waterfowl in the open or doves in the fields, a tighter choke that can reach out at longer distance and put a significant number of pellets on the bird is desirable.

    With buckshot a choke can be counterproductive. One of the reasons buckshot pellets spread is because as they are being forced out of the barrel they make contact with one another causing flat spots. These flat spots cause them to fly erratically once they are in the air, which leads to spreading. A tighter choke can actually smush them into each other more than a cylinder choke causing a worse pattern than if you had no choke at all.

    Of course, like everything else that varies from barrel to barrel and load to load. Some barrels will pattern better with something like a modified choke installed. Modern Remington 870 Police barrels are Improved Cylinder. Carlson's even makes a specific buckshot choke that is supposed to tighten up the pattern of conventional (non-Flight Control) buckshot primarily for hunting.

    So it comes down to preference.

    Alternately you could send your barrel out to Vang Comp for their barrel treatment. They rework the internal profile of the barrel to significantly reduce the overall pattern size and improve the concentricity of pellets in the pattern. Adding screw-in chokes will likely make a little bit of difference, but not as much as the Vang treatment on the barrel.

    If you want to set your shotgun up for max distance buckshot use, their Federal Flight Control barrel treatment is the heat. When used with FFC it shoots patterns at 50 yards better than most guns shoot at 25. The tradeoff is that it shoots really, really tight patterns at closer ranges.
    3/15/2016

  9. #9
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    May 2014
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    Gotham Adjacent
    Quote Originally Posted by TCinVA View Post
    If you want to set your shotgun up for max distance buckshot use, their Federal Flight Control barrel treatment is the heat. When used with FFC it shoots patterns at 50 yards better than most guns shoot at 25. The tradeoff is that it shoots really, really tight patterns at closer ranges.
    That sounds pretty hot...do you have one setup like that?

  10. #10
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Virginia
    Quote Originally Posted by powell556 View Post
    In that situation, is a 12" spread bad? If you hit dead center, all pellets would go into the target. And if you miss a center shot, the risk to others is super small, but you still hit with a few pellets which is better than zero. Of course that 12" would need to be spread at max distance inside your home.

    Let's assume the identical scenario but you are using FFC and running a 3" spread. And you do miss by a few inches. Now all 15 pellets are going off errantly. Whereas with the 12" spread, only 10 to 12 of those pellets might go off errantly on that same shot. Then again, suppose you would have a solid hit with 3" spread that was on the fringe of the bad guy's chest. All 15 shots would go into him with 3" spread but with 12" spread, you'd have a few fliers. So we'd have to compare liklihood of missing completely by a couple inches versus getting a solid shot on the fringe of the chest. I haven't thought this fully through but my gut tells me I'm more likely to hit on the fringe of the chest wall than to miss completely, if I'm aiming center mass.
    What I see over and over and over again in class is that with buckshot that spreads to that 12" pattern people have to take very, very careful aim to have any hope of keeping all their pellets on target.

    When people use Federal Flight Control, common aiming errors (like improperly mounting the gun in concert with a bead sight pushing the pattern high) end up putting the full payload on a different part of the target than intended...but still on the target. To give an example, here are two clients. The first was using conventional buckshot:

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    Point of aim was the grey triangle. This client had to take careful aim on every shot to get the mediocre results you see on the target. If he was off even a little bit, he'd put half the pattern off the acceptable target area.

    Contrast this with another client's experience:

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    Note that he made a number of aiming errors...a common thing when people try to use bead sights under time pressure...and yet when he "missed" he still put a full pattern on some pretty important bits of bad guy anatomy.

    I see this in every class. The tighter pattern doesn't show up as a liability.

    I've had folks work on a moving target, too...moving at human speed...and it's the same story. If they make an error on the moving target they end up putting the full pattern on a different part of the dude's anatomy than originally intended. When someone with a more widely scattered buckshot made an error, they were lucky to get a few pellets on target.


    Let's explore overpenetration through drywall. I'm not an engineer, but it would also seem like the 12" spread is less likely to overpenetrate interior walls than a 3" spread that misses the target.
    In Shotgun 360 we built an interior wall and two exterior walls. We shot it with multiple munitions, including buckshot that spreads more than flight control. The entire pattern went through the interior wall and both exterior walls...just like FFC did.
    3/15/2016

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