I'm only talking about uniformed police officers.Originally Posted by RevolverRob
Okie John
I'm only talking about uniformed police officers.
Okie John
“The reliability of the 30-06 on most of the world’s non-dangerous game is so well established as to be beyond intelligent dispute.” Finn Aagaard
"Don't fuck with it" seems to prevent the vast majority of reported issues." BehindBlueI's
Bullshit. You fight it in court, not the street. That's not Orwellian, that's the rule of law replacing the law of the jungle.
Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.
Double bullshit. Because there is nothing about what I wrote that is bullshit.
If all citizens are required to follow the orders of state-authorized actors at all times under threat of bodily injury or death, that is a violation of their constitutional rights.
To be clear, I never said fight in the street or fight in court. I also, clearly, didn't state whether all orders are legal/lawful orders or not, you assumed I was discussing all lawful orders. I was in fact not drawing a distinction between lawful/unlawful orders, because some orders are lawful and others are not. The fact of the matter is, many instances have been found where officers issued unlawful orders and subsequently overstepped their bounds of authority by using violence to force compliance with an unlawful order. I don't need to tell you this, you are aware of that. The point remains true; if state-actors can be found to have forced compliance with unlawful orders, then compliance with all orders of state actors is a violation of the constitution.
There are many issues facing policing in this country. Issuing directions that are, "Shut the fuck up and follow all police commands" is just about as myopic a world view as, "All Muslims are terrorists" is (follow me, not a straw-man). In that both ignore the reality of culture and human nature. No human is going to "just comply" with every order given, it's in our very nature NOT to, because some orders may be at odds to our survival. Which is why one of the things that has to change is the culture surrounding the way in which we do policing.
I'm not saying such changes are easy. Merely point out that there is a genuine reaction of ire and non-compliance to the way (and culture) surrounding policing.
ET (much later PS): Please remember. I'm not advocating violence against police or violence against people. Merely trying to point out the fallacy in the thinking here. Which, despite their incorrect (and inappropriate approach) is what the NFL players were trying to do too. I want a peaceful society, where we can have things balanced and it's not an "Us v. Them" mentality. One way to approach this is to break down some of the cultural barriers that have been created, in particular, over the last 120 years or so.
Last edited by RevolverRob; 05-24-2018 at 03:22 PM.
“STFU and obey all lawful authority.“
The last time I checked, our national anthem wasn’t “God Save the Queen”. This country was founded by a lot of people who did not just shut the fuck up and follow the legal process.
Protest, especially peaceful protest, is supposed to make people uncomfortable. It is supposed to make people think. Those who don’t support the idea of other people protesting things should follow in the footsteps of those who left Boston on Evacuation Day
If we have to march off into the next world, let us walk there on the bodies of our enemies.
Too little too late.
Continuing the thread drift, my position is not that you need to comply with lawful orders under threat of grave bodily harm, but that cops are people too, and make mistakes, are sometimes poorly trained, have occasional lapses in judgement, accidents, and sometimes out and out ill will towards their fellow man, so immediate compliance with commands, and the patience to use the system greatly reduces problems for all involved. Not required, but a good idea.
Back on topic: I have been sceptical of the whole take a knee thing because the participants had poorly articulated, evolving greivences that they protested. Struck me as more attention seeking than anything else with a racial component similar to the idea that disagreeing with Obama's policies was rooted in recism, rather than a difference of opinion or position. I could be wrong but that is how I have seen it up till now. Not been pursuaded by the provided arguements.
I have never been an NFL fan, and am not likely to become one. The NFL, as a organization, can set its own rules, and enforce them, and does not have to be a venue for its employees to excercise free speech. Probably too little too late, but I think that capitalism will win out within the NFL as the newer and lower paid athletes with lofty professional goals realize that their fortunes are directly tied to the profits being made by the league, and that reduced attendence and lower viewership will hit them in the wallets.
pat
Thats a bullshit claim.
"I'm a tactical operator and Instructor and also retired military."
-read on another forum
Our founders also attempted to use the legal process to address their grievances until that option was exhausted. And put down rebellions against their legal authority hard afterward. You know that. Let's go ahead and toss out harboring Jews and the Underground Railroad. We'll get there eventually if the conversation continues so might as well get them out of the way now.
The initial statement was:
That's the context. Police shootings that started this whole kneel/don't kneel who-gives-a-shit controversy. Not harboring Jews, not freeing slaves, not overthrowing a foreign monarch. Words have meaning, and attempts to clean it up later aside, "Orwellian" was what RevolverRob elected to use. It's just another version of Obama's going to use the UN to take our guns. Railing against an imaginary dictatorship.These athletes need to go spread the word that you won't get hurt or killed by the police if you immediately STFU and do what the officer tells you to do. Every single person who gets hurt or killed by police has sealed his or her own fate by refusing to comply with at least one command that they were given
Now, that out of the way. I don't think anyone is suggesting you can't peacefully protest, but free speech has limits. Again, you know that. When I'm on the clock, my free speech is greatly curtailed. My actions reflect upon my employer and organization. The cashier who goes to a "Choose Life" rally vs the cashier who gives a little anti-abortion speech to each customer at her register are not equal. The NFL players are free to protest in the same way. The NFL is also within their rights to enforce certain rules on their employees while they are on the clock.
Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.
Actually, they did follow the legal process of the time, right up until the point where they realized it was so much pissing in the wind... at least that's what the history books say.
Regarding the NFL thing in general: i'm in the, IDGAF camp, if players actually care about the things they're trying to "fix" they should do as suggested and work harder to convince their "followers" that the FUCK THE POLICE lifestyle is a bad way to improve life expectancy.
ETA: BBI said it way better than I did; someone has had his morning covfefe
I care and am insulted that the NFL players disrespect the Flag and the Anthem. I am insulted by the NFL too - they are a business and only care about profits but now are kinda semi-patriotic - want their cake and eat it too kind of thing. Maybe a drop in revenue caught their attention suddenly.
Being a player in the NFL is a JOB - when you have a JOB, you follow the rules of your employer or you get punished to the point of being fired. Unless self-employed, how many of us can just do whatever we want at work? How many of us would keep our jobs if we chose to somehow protest at work in a regular meeting - say kneel at the beginning on every weekly staff meeting thereby disrupting the meeting and causing issues at work (thereby negatively impacting business)?
NFL should have stopped this at the very beginning - rules are rules. Do not want to play by rules - then leave. When the players are in the stadium, wearing the team uniform, they are representative of that team and the NFL - follow the rules. If you do not like the rules - quit. This is the same NFL that punishes players for uniform infractions, mandatory drug testing, off field misbehavior (Domestic violence), etc. yet the NFL cannot mandate respect the Flag and the Anthem? See how far you can press Freedom of Expression at your job.
Last edited by ranger; 05-25-2018 at 07:03 AM.
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