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Thread: What if I have a heavy .38 snubbie?

  1. #1
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    What if I have a heavy .38 snubbie?

    Seems like the old .38 HBWC is, once again,the consensus load for J frames. Makes sense to me.

    However, I also have a 2 inch Model 10 K frame. So, for those with a steel frame, full size, yet short barrel (2 to 2.5 inch) revolver: what ammo could we upgrade to?

    The gun is heavy enough so any hypothetical .38 +P+ load would be fine. The trigger is much, much better. Even the sights are far more useable. So, with recoil and shoot-ability issues covered, is there a JHP or SWCHP load that reliably passes modern tests reliably enough to go up to?

    I've still got a stock of the old Remington FBI load, lots of Gold Dot 135 short barrel, and even a single box of Jim Cirillo's "Safestop" FMJ full wadcutters. I'm ready for whatever choice I suppose...

  2. #2
    Hoplophilic doc SAWBONES's Avatar
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    If your Model 10 has the "trough" rear sight rather than an adjustable one, then I would use whichever load hits most closely and reproducibly to POA, regardless of whether the bullet is HBWC, LSWCHP or anything else (hopefully not LRN).

    Accuracy & precision trump all other ammunition-selection considerations, IMNSHO.
    "Therefore, since the world has still... Much good, but much less good than ill,
    And while the sun and moon endure, Luck's a chance, but trouble's sure,
    I'd face it as a wise man would, And train for ill and not for good." -- A.E. Housman

  3. #3
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    Yup, a good point indeed. That would probably bode well for the 148 HBWC and the FBI load. I will have to compare.

    To complicate matters, The M10 has a set of CTC laser grips and I also have a 2.5 inch performance center 686+ with adjustable sights that would like a good .38 +P light load.

    For today's purposes I am concerned for the terminal ballistics side of the equation.

  4. #4
    Member Moonshot's Avatar
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    I'm no expert, and I'm sure many here will disagree with me, but if the barrel length is 2.5" or less, I'd stick with WCs.

    A full size all steel K-frame will certainly be easier to shoot and will absorb recoil far beter than a J-frame, even an all steel J-frame, better trigger and better sights will aid in accuracy, but that short barrel won't provide any more bullet performance on target than that same round fired from a 1 7/8" airweight. Practice sessions will be more enjoyable, you should be better able to place that round where you want it, and follow up shots should be faster, but again, once that bullet leaves the barrel, it's not going to behave any differently than if it were fired from smaller, lighter gun.

    I believe it has been said by people far smarter than I that a HP that fails to expand behaves more like FMJ or RNL, and will offer less wounding than a full WC. As I have no confidence that any +P HP - whether old school all lead or modern JHP, will reliably expand after passing through 4LD when fired from a 2" (+-) barrel, I'll stick with WCs.

    YMMV

  5. #5
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    Moonshot, that really is my sneaking suspicion as well. It seems a shame I can't make 30 something ounces work for me a little on this issue.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by 314159 View Post
    Seems like the old .38 HBWC is, once again,the consensus load for J frames. Makes sense to me.

    However, I also have a 2 inch Model 10 K frame. So, for those with a steel frame, full size, yet short barrel (2 to 2.5 inch) revolver: what ammo could we upgrade to?

    The gun is heavy enough so any hypothetical .38 +P+ load would be fine. The trigger is much, much better. Even the sights are far more useable. So, with recoil and shoot-ability issues covered, is there a JHP or SWCHP load that reliably passes modern tests reliably enough to go up to?

    I've still got a stock of the old Remington FBI load, lots of Gold Dot 135 short barrel, and even a single box of Jim Cirillo's "Safestop" FMJ full wadcutters. I'm ready for whatever choice I suppose...
    My Agency still authorizes J frames as personally BUG / off duty guns and we still have a limited amount of issue J frames as well. Duty load is the 135 grain +p God dot.

    The 158 grain +p LSWCHP is a good load but AFAIK the last issued revolver round for the FBI was the Federal hydrashok 147 +p+.

    Between the two I prefer +p but there are no magic bullets. I am fond of quoting the late professional hunter Finn Aagard “shot placement is 90% of killing power.” Therefore I would go with what hits POA/POI for your gun.

    Re: wadcutters: The rationale for wadcutters in J frames, particularly lightweight J frames, is not just lack of expansion /terminal performance but rather reduced recoil improving accuracy / shot placement. In a K frame steel snub that is not really a factor.

    If you don’t believe a HP will expand from your 2” barrel a better option would be the old NYPD issue loaf, the 158 grain +p LSWC (not hp). To quote the late Pat Rogers “it worked pretty good if you could shoot.”
    Last edited by HCM; 05-20-2018 at 12:21 PM.

  7. #7
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    I am showing my age/mis-informed status perhaps. When I refer to the FBI load, I am naming the 158 +P LSWCHP loads. Never saw any of the 147 +P+ stuff available.

  8. #8
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocGKR
    Currently, the Speer Gold Dot 135 gr +P JHP, Winchester 130 gr bonded +P JHP (RA38B), and Barnes 110 gr XPB all copper JHP (for ex. in the Corbon DPX loading) offer the most reliable expansion we have seen from a .38 sp 2” BUG; Hornady 110 gr standard pressure and +P Critical Defense loads also offer good performance out of 2" barrel revolvers.
    Sample size of one, but I chest shot an angry pitbull with Winchester bonded out of my LCR and it worked as advertised.
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by 314159 View Post
    I am showing my age/mis-informed status perhaps. When I refer to the FBI load, I am naming the 158 +P LSWCHP loads. Never saw any of the 147 +P+ stuff available.
    The 158 +p LSWCHP is generally known as the FBI load or the Chicago PD load. FBI used If for decades. In the late 1980s / early 190s they went to the hydrashok load as part of the push for improved performance post Miami shoot out.

    Whether the hydrashok was actually better then the traditional 158 LSWC hollow point is a question for DOCGKR.

    The FBI LSWCHP load has a proven record in actual shootings as long as intermediate barriers aren’t a factor.

    With regard to the Jim Cirillo ammo. Regardless of its virtues, anything out of production, which you have one one box of is not really a viable carry load. While function isn’t as much of an issue in a revelover, you need to know the POA/POI of your carry ammo. Also, ammo actually carried and exposed to the elements, dirts, sweat etc etc should be replaced at least annually.
    Last edited by HCM; 05-20-2018 at 01:20 PM.

  10. #10
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    On the Safestop load, understood. I'll just put in my j-frame until it is all gone/aged out. Just expended 5 rounds a week ago and it shoots to POA with conventional HBWC loads.

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