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Thread: Just do not understand, why different??

  1. #21
    Site Supporter Trooper224's Avatar
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    It seems small minded and petty because it is. It's all based on attitudes of the participants, both male and female. The man usually feels the need to assert himself because he's the "guy". His own knowledge base is irrelevant, it's a "guy" thing so he has to act like he knows. The woman doesn't want to disagree with the "guy" because she doesn't want to hurt his feelings, because women are all about "feelings". If spouses enroll in a class, on anything, the best thing to do is separate them if possible. They both learn better that way since it eliminates the hunter/gather dynamic.


    Personally, I don't find women to be better students than men, just better in some ways and worse in others. Women are far more open to initial instruction and seem to be better students, but only to a point. Women suck at critical analysis in a training environment. Once men have the nuts and bolts down, they're far better at analyzing a problem and taking corrective action. Quite often I find women need much more hand holding in this area. I don't think it's because they aren't as smart or less capable than men, not at all. It's all about those god damned "feelings" again. A man gets to a certain point and past that he'd like to be left alone to handle it himself. I've seen women fail to take basic corrective action on something like a simple malfunction and instead, look to the instructor for help even after they've been instructed on how to deal with it. I'm convinced this isn't because they haven't learned or can't comprehend, but rather entirely based upon their subconscious concern for the instructors feelings. "That's his/her area and I want him/her to feel included." kind of thing. Men need to get over being the know it all knuckle draggers and women need to get over their ingrained need to make everyone happy.

    I always advocate a spouse getting training from an outside source. As an example, a few years ago, my wife wanted to get back into shooting after being away for many years. She kept blowing me off and making the same procedural errors time after time, some of them involving safety concerns. We finally had a come to Jesus about it and I told her she could either quit blowing me off or find another instructor, everything was fine after that. My wife is also a teacher and they make the absolute WORST students, just like doctors make the worst patients. Fact is, no one feels free to blow you off more than family since any professional boundry is nonexistent.


    Women need their own classes, because it's easier to go to special snowflake class than it is to learn to make reasonable demands and deal with gender shit. It's called avoidance. It's not politically correct to say this, but women have their own set of baggage they need to get over. Having gender specific training in any field, while the current snowflake hotness, isn't the way to overcome that.
    Last edited by Trooper224; 05-19-2018 at 07:41 PM.
    We may lose and we may win, but we will never be here again.......

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Trooper224 View Post


    Women need their own classes, because it's easier to go to special snowflake class than it is to learn to make reasonable demands and deal with gender shit. It's called avoidance. It's not politically correct to say this, but women have their own set of baggage they need to get over. Having gender specific training in any field, while the current snowflake hotness, isn't the way to overcome that.
    I don’t think it is snowflake BS for women to have specific classes. Fact is women are physically different then men -news at 11 I know- which means they way they interact with and carry guns will by necessity be different from men. Then there’s the social reality women are targeted for violent assault in a different fashion then men are. These are points best explained to women by female counterparts with direct experience.
    The Minority Marksman.
    "When you meet a swordsman, draw your sword: Do not recite poetry to one who is not a poet."
    -a Ch'an Buddhist axiom.

  3. #23
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    Women often/usually have smaller hands than men and that is an important consideration for selecting a proper handgun and lots of guys absolutely don't understand that. Lots of male instructors don't understand that.

    And because of the configuration of the female body and the way women dress, holster selection is affected too. Women have a shorter distance between their waist and their armpit, and so "high ride" holsters may not work very well for them. And the shape of the female hips is different, so inside-the-waistband holsters often don't work for them, either. Another obvious thing that lots of male instructors don't understand.

    The male ego is often/usually an impediment to learning . . .

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by todd View Post
    I don't understand why the Heck women need to have their own classes of training.
    I have been thinking about this the last few days (I drive a lot...) and I thought maybe another way to look at it might be that you don't know why might be the reason why.

    Not trying to be mean, just trying to be a little silly, but the fact is "we" will probably never completely understand all of the things that makes "them" more or less uncomfortable, probably best to just roll with it...

  5. #25
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    that you don't know why might be the reason why.
    Just do not understand, why different??
    I’ve been resisting responding, and maybe I still should, but ... it’s been running through my head since I first read the title:

    “Why different? Because, different!”

  6. #26
    Hoplophilic doc SAWBONES's Avatar
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    As an observer of women's learning experiences in the Women's Basic Pistol class which my wife took along with half a dozen other ladies, as taught by Vicki Farnam and Marti Tueller, I can only wholeheartedly agree that there are significant differences in how women learn, absorb and process information (or at least information as related to typically "man-centric" stuff like guns, shooting and fostering a certain amount of needful aggression), and there's no question that more actual learning happened when the women were taught by women, separately from men, as a group.

    Some of them wept when they were actually able to perform certain basic class activities well.
    Women are different, and vive la différence!

    All of them felt supported, non-competitive and comfortable, and said as much after the class.
    All of them passed the final shooting test.

    Having also taken pistol classes attended mostly by men but with one or two women present, I have also observed in at least one case the coquettish, flirty behavior of a particular attractive individual woman in this setting, which was doubtless related to her being the only member of her sex present in a testosterone-rich environment, and the attentions accordingly paid to her by at least a couple of the male students.

    It's at least a potential distraction to have one or a few women in an otherwise male "active gun class" (shooting and physical implementation of tactics, that is, not classroom), not to mention that the instructor may well have to adapt his teaching in ways and to degrees not not required for the men, assuming similar levels of previous experience on the parts of the students.

    Of course co-ed teaching of the physical skills of pistol instruction can be done, and has been done, by probably all competent instructors, but it's clear to me that women's-only classes really do genuinely get better results for many women students.
    "Therefore, since the world has still... Much good, but much less good than ill,
    And while the sun and moon endure, Luck's a chance, but trouble's sure,
    I'd face it as a wise man would, And train for ill and not for good." -- A.E. Housman

  7. #27
    Member JATA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    Re: the husband and wife thing, even if the husband actually knows both how to shoot and how to teach the dynamics of the relationship which will limit the effectiveness of the instruction.

    You can teach your daughter to shoot, you can teach your sister, cousin, maybe even your mom to shoot but there will always be issues "teaching" a spouse or significant other. It's best left to a 3rd party.
    That second paragraph applies even more in martial arts (not trying to go off the rez here). Anyone who hasn't been through it can only imaging how bad the training suffers.

    As for girl only gun classes - I love the idea. No matter how professional a group of guys tries to be, there will be a couple guys in the class that are focusing attention on the female student. They might actually be trying to help (normally get more "helpful" the more attractive she is) but they actually distract these ladies. It is work for a woman to manage situations like that. They have to be reserved but not rude, friendly but not flirty. They have to quickly interpret every smile, every comment and formulate the most appropriate response. Plus is a little is on them, too. They do not want to look foolish in front of the opposite sex any more than men do. Truth is - they have more important things to focus on and will learn faster without the guys around.
    "Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty" ~ Thomas Jefferson

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