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Thread: Lock your doors

  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed L View Post
    By stating that if you thought they were nefarious, you would never step outside, you are acknowledging that your protocol isn't the best one to apply to anyone who would be a real threat.

    You must have some amazing spidey senses. If your spidey senses tell you they are not nefarious, why the whole elaborate routine of going out the back garage door, locking it behind you and leaving a vehicle in your driveway so I you can position yourself on the driver side of the hood with the engine block between you and them? Wouldn't it be simpler to just speak to them through the door or a nearby window and tell them that you are not interested?

    And spidey senses are far from infallible. A lot of criminals go to great lengths to appear innocuous and are deliberately deceptive or ambiguous, so you may not know whether that guy who knocked on your door was an annoying door to door salesman or a criminal looking for a ruse to gain entry. I can find lots of examples of seemingly innocuous seeming people who used it as a ruse to get the homeowner to open the door. I am not trying to say that you would open the door, I am saying that you really can't tell, thus I have a policy of not opening the door for anyone I don't know.

    Second, once you have stepped outside, a lot of things can go wrong that you have no control over--such as how the person acts or reacts. They can decide to start closing the distance on you while talking the way panhandlers often do. Are you ready to draw your gun on them at that point? There may be two of them who decide to rush you. By going outside the way you describe you can get yourself into a much worse situation both tactically and legally.
    Yes, thank you Ed for your wisdom. You seem like a good guy with some good feedback. I'm just too lazy to type all this stuff up on a gun forum. I'm aware of all the things you point out. You may not like it that I simply don't open a window and tell them to go away, that's fine. If I get assulted next time some 19yo pimply faced kid comes to my door selling me insert control services than it's on me. I live in a very nice neighborhood. Crime here is stupid low. Can bad things happen anywhere and anytime? Of course they can, I'm aware of this. I would be far more apt in deploying some of your strategies if I lived in a high crime area for sure.

  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed L View Post
    By stating that if you thought they were nefarious, you would never step outside, you are acknowledging that your protocol isn't the best one to apply to anyone who would be a real threat.

    You must have some amazing spidey senses. If your spidey senses tell you they are not nefarious, why the whole elaborate routine of going out the back garage door, locking it behind you and leaving a vehicle in your driveway so I you can position yourself on the driver side of the hood with the engine block between you and them? Wouldn't it be simpler to just speak to them through the door or a nearby window and tell them that you are not interested?

    And spidey senses are far from infallible. A lot of criminals go to great lengths to appear innocuous and are deliberately deceptive or ambiguous, so you may not know whether that guy who knocked on your door was an annoying door to door salesman or a criminal looking for a ruse to gain entry. I can find lots of examples of seemingly innocuous seeming people who used it as a ruse to get the homeowner to open the door. I am not trying to say that you would open the door, I am saying that you really can't tell, thus I have a policy of not opening the door for anyone I don't know.

    Second, once you have stepped outside, a lot of things can go wrong that you have no control over--such as how the person acts or reacts. They can decide to start closing the distance on you while talking the way panhandlers often do. Are you ready to draw your gun on them at that point? There may be two of them who decide to rush you. By going outside the way you describe you can get yourself into a much worse situation both tactically and legally.

    I agree with this. I think one way that people can get into situations by mistake is, "Reading a situation". Trying, as much as possible, to treat the situation the same for everyone is the way to go. So, I don't answer my door if the church lady is outside. Why? Because the church lady sometimes turns out to be a cleaned up tweeker. Sometimes the church lady is really a schizophrenic person who thinks you are the devil and must cleanse you with a kitchen knife.

    It's that making assumptions that get us in trouble sometimes. And I'm not pointing fingers. It's easy for all of us to make logic mistakes, assumptions, etc. Simple rules to keep us from ever having the possibility of getting in trouble with the church lady work to keep us from getting in trouble with the criminals and nut cases.

    I've found the rules even apply to animals. Making assumptions for animals getting into the trash or fountain can be deadly or dangerous. Chasing the raccoon or skunk away with a flashlight or rocks works almost every time. Until a drought year(this year) and they have rabies or the bear, mountain lion, etc is emaciated and comes at you instead of away from you. I keep a few rocks on the deck. That way I can chuck the rocks from just outside my door. If they charge me I just step back inside. Let the GAF's come and deal with putting down the lion or bear. They can do that safely and already have rabies shots.
    What you do right before you know you're going to be in a use of force incident, often determines the outcome of that use of force.

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew78 View Post
    You're nuts. The only thing I've been caught with, is being in a redicilous conversation with some "random nobody" who thinks he's the next SWAT leader. You may not agree or like the wording I chose. To imply that I would somehow brandish a weapon to intimidate someone is as stupid and ignorant a statement as your previous posts.

    I also never said anything about "seeking cover" as you stated above. Seriously? So if you want to "cut the shit" as you so elloquently put it, start with yourself.

    Scanning for lurkers was a bit tounge in cheek. Let me break that down for you cypher. That means I look to see how many people are coming to my home to talk to me. Is that somehow a bad "tactic". Or maybe it takes like. 5 seconds and is just something totally natural.

    You jumped my shit the second you read my post. Im tempted to tell you what to do with your d!ck, but unlike you I don't swing that way and the very thought of that makes me want to puke.

    "Drive on tactical bro"
    I jumped on your post because it is a phenomenally bad idea. Please note that I'm not the only one that's saying this.

    Your original post and your subsequent posts don't match I'm sorry but they don't. You tell me you don't seek cover yet you make a point of positioning yourself behind the engine block of your car.

    You tell us that your aim is to keep these door knockers from seeing in your house or seeing your kids. Well, they're looking in your house and they're looking at your kids the whole time you're sneaking around back of the house to come up behind them (which in and of itself is extremely confrontational by the way). If you really want them away from your windows and your kids the quickest way to do it is to crack a window and tell them to leave.

    Finally you say it's an essential benign situation and that you really don't expect it to go sideways but again you feel the need to place cover and distance between yourself in the door knockers. Those two things are incongruent.

    You originally said one thing you've been backpedaling ever since and trying to say it's something else I know that's why I'm questioning it and I'm certain that's why others are too.

    Final thought. Not a single person has told you that you're tactics are sound or a good idea you might want to think about that. Again please don't take any of this personally have a nice day.
    Last edited by Cypher; 06-08-2018 at 05:23 AM.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Drew78 View Post
    Yes, thank you Ed for your wisdom. You seem like a good guy with some good feedback. I'm just too lazy to type all this stuff up on a gun forum. I'm aware of all the things you point out. You may not like it that I simply don't open a window and tell them to go away, that's fine. If I get assulted next time some 19yo pimply faced kid comes to my door selling me insert control services than it's on me. I live in a very nice neighborhood. Crime here is stupid low. Can bad things happen anywhere and anytime? Of course they can, I'm aware of this. I would be far more apt in deploying some of your strategies if I lived in a high crime area for sure.
    We may be talking past each other. I am not suggesting that you open a window, merely talk through a closed window by the door, since you described your house as being largely glass. Or talk or yell through a closed door. Or get one of those video bell things that allows you to see who is at the door and talk to them.

    You say you live in a nice neighborhood, but you have a very elaborate procedure for dealing with strangers at your door that has numerous problems as I and others have pointed out.

    No one on this forum comes close to agreeing on everything, and there are quite a divergence of opinions. But the consensus is dealing with strangers from behind a closed door or through a nearby closed window is the best practice. This thread originally started about the simple wisdom of keeping your door locked and is now focused on dealing with strangers at your door and the issue of criminals using subterfuge to get you to open your door and launching a home invasion.
    Last edited by Ed L; 06-08-2018 at 05:37 AM.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by HCountyGuy View Post
    Are we reading a bit too much into this whole “if you go outside the prosecutor will make it as though you were looking for a fight?” rhetoric?

    I’m not trying to be condescending. I’m genuinely curious of cases where this has happened in where Citizen of Mayberry went outside to innocently interface with an individual who used one of these ruses and then had to shoot/stab/beat scumbag in self-defense and the prosecutor went “Well you went outside!

    I’m not disagreeing with the practice of never opening the door/going outside for an unknown. In fact I operate by the same SOP. Just looking for documented incidents.
    I apologize. I did not read your post closely enough and did not key in on the particular part which I bolded for emphasis. I don't know of any cases where someone went outside or opened the door as a result of a ruse and got attacked and had to defend themself with deadly force and got in trouble for that. I can't imagine it happening. The situations where people got in trouble were where they claimed to be in fear of their life, yet left the safety of their locked house to face, confront, or investigate someone who was otherwise not a direct threat to them.

    Another case that that falls into this category that I just remembered was the Roderick Scott Trial. An African American man in upstate NY called 911 to report that teenagers were breaking into cars on his street. After being informed by the 911 operator that the police could not be there for at least a half hour, he went outside with his licensed handgun to confront them (I believe there were three whites in their late teens). One of them rushed him and he wound up shooting the teen 2-3 times, killing him. If I remember correctly one of the rounds hit the teen in the side as he was turning away--as one might expect in a fast moving situation. Of course the prosecution argued that the shooter deliberately shot him in the back. The end result; the shooter went on trial for manslaughter and was found not guilty. Central to the case was the fact that he left the safety of his house to confront someone who was not a direct threat to anyone, without which the situation would not have occurred. He was found not guilty, but the financial and emotional toll must have been terrible.

    It emphasizes what I have been harping on--once you leave the safety of your locked house to investigate or possibly confront an unknown, you have no idea who you are facing or how they may act or how the situation might unfold or how bad it might escalate. It's best to be seen as doing everything you can to safely avoid a situation that can possibly escalate to violence--as well as the safest course of action.
    Last edited by Ed L; 06-09-2018 at 03:33 AM.

  6. #146
    Revolvers Revolvers 1911s Stephanie B's Avatar
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    If you stay in your house, somebody break in and you shoot them, absent special circumstances, that’s a classic self-defense shooting.

    Go outside your house, and all bets are off.
    If we have to march off into the next world, let us walk there on the bodies of our enemies.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Stephanie B View Post
    If you stay in your house, somebody break in and you shoot them, absent special circumstances, that’s a classic self-defense shooting.

    Go outside your house, and all bets are off.
    I am jealous.

    You perfectly summarized what I have been rambling about in several posts in two sentences.

  8. #148
    banana republican blues's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed L View Post
    I am jealous.

    You perfectly summarized what I have been rambling about in several posts in two sentences.
    LOL! I was thinking the same thing when I read Steph's post but I was much too gentlemanly to say anything.

    BTW, Ed, I thought you acquitted yourself admirably.
    There's nothing civil about this war.

    Read: Harrison Bergeron

  9. #149
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    I work in a village of 7300 people.

    Week before last we had a bunch of thefts from UNLOCKED cars. In two instances, the thieves found garage door openers in the unlocked cars. In once case they entered the garage and took a few things (door from the garage to the house was locked) and in the other case it appears they entered the house into the kitchen through an unlocked door, took a few kitchen knives, and split. This happened at night and the house was occupied.

    The homeowner said "we never lock the door from the garage . . . " well, probably time to start.

    And somebody else had a bicycle stolen because they left the garage door wide open all night . . . .

  10. #150
    When I lived in a small Utah town (and I do mean small- the only stop light in town was a flashing light on the corner of State & Main), I learned from hard experience about locking up your house and car. Especially during the fall. If you left your car unlocked, you were going to find a bushel of fresh red tomatoes sitting on the front seat. If you left your house unlocked, you'd come home to find your table filled with fresh baked zucchini bread. So many tomatoes and loaves of zucchini bread, you'd be sick of them in a week. The only way to get rid of them was to sneak them out of the house and troll the streets in your car until you found some other poor sap who forgot to lock their doors.
    Last edited by MistWolf; 06-13-2018 at 10:58 PM.
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