Increasing red dot handgun speed at close range

[GJM]

Similar to a red dot on a long gun, a slide mounted red dot on a service pistol offers a number of potential shooting advantages — an easily adjustable zero, low light capability, the ability to stay target focused, a usable aiming reference for mature eyes, and the ability to get full sighting information from a single dot as opposed to aligning and interpreting iron sights. There are two areas that many shooters transitioning to a red dot struggle with, slower speed on close targets and reliably/quickly finding the dot on the presentation. Here are some things to consider, that may help you improve in each of these area.

1) speed on close targets. With iron sights, depending upon target size and distance, we may use anything from just pointing the pistol, to indexing the slide, to a gross front sight, to a sharp front sight, and so on all the way through the continuum to a perfectly sharp front and rear sight with equal light and bars. Yet, when shooting close and gross targets with the red dot, the same shooter that might use far less than a sharp front and rear sight with equal light and bars to make the shot, insists on stopping the red dot and placing it on a precise spot on the target. If you understand that the red dot streaking anywhere within the target zone will result in an acceptable hit (assuming you press the trigger properly) you will get red dot speed on close targets equivalent or faster than with iron sights.

2) reliably acquiring the dot on presentation. With optimal iron sight presentations, your index will bring the iron sights onto the target, in alignment, and you will use vision just to confirm sight alignment, rather than look for sight alignment. Once you are on board with this philosophy, meaning your index gets the sights there, you can focus on what path your muzzle takes to the target. To steal something from TPC, when in doubt, act like a human. Try pointing at a spot on the wall with your finger and you will quickly see the natural path your body uses to point. Hint — this natural path does not look like a classic press out.

So, if you are presenting a red dot pistol with a classic press out, you are using your vision rather than your index to align your red dot. That is slower because it traces a circuitous route, and less reliable because you are not using your natural index you have spent your whole life developing each time you point at something. A good way to visualize an efficient draw path is to start with the pistol aligned in target and reverse the pistol all the way back into the holster. Using a direct presentation path, that aligns the pistol using index, with vision just used to confirm index, I have been able to frequently do a one shot red dot pistol draws to a seven yard target down into the .50’s from a Production rig type holster.

Hopefully these comments will give those struggling with red dot presentation speed and close shooting speed some things to consider.

[DAVE_M]

How close is "close?"

I'm continually learning with a slide mounted optic. Personally, inside of 5 yards, finding the dot seems to be a wasted effort if speed is necessary. Inside of 5 yards, I'm always concentrating on the target and using the optic window as a reference, unless I'm trying to make precision hits. If there is a better method, I'm open to trying other things.

[GJM]

How close is "close?"

I'm continually learning with a slide mounted optic. Personally, inside of 5 yards, finding the dot seems to be a wasted effort if speed is necessary. Inside of 5 yards, I'm always concentrating on the target and using the optic window as a reference, unless I'm trying to make precision hits. If there is a better method, I'm open to trying other things.

I use my dot, even if it just a streak, on close targets.

[DAVE_M]

I use my dot, even if it just a streak, on close targets.

Then we do the same. The dot is there, ensuring you have a proper presentation. It may not be a precision shot, but it's there... somewhere lol

[GJM]

Look at these two examples of placing a shot on a 3x5 with a dot.



The left example is one way to do it, and in contrast, consider that in on the right example, any of those placements of the dot, including my attempts at drawing a streak, will get you a 3x5 hit. The right example is obviously much faster.

[guymontag]

Would love to hear more thoughts regarding the speed of the dot in general if you have the time. Any tips on staying target focused?

I think it was a Rob L video where he said that the dot doesn’t need to settle completely, just settle appropriately for the target. Or maybe that was Patrick Kelley on aiming in general.

Any other barriers you can think of for us learning the dot?

[GJM]

Would love to hear more thoughts regarding the speed of the dot in general if you have the time. Any tips on staying target focused?

I think it was a Rob L video where he said that the dot doesn’t need to settle completely, just settle appropriately for the target. Or maybe that was Patrick Kelley on aiming in general.

Any other barriers you can think of for us learning the dot?

No, the dot does not need to settle, see the example of the right 3x5 depiction above.

The first barrier to learning to shoot the red dot fast up close is psychological — believing that it will be slower. Throw that away, and set your goal to shoot the dot as fast or faster up close. The second barrier is believing you need the dot to stay still in one spot — accept that you only need the dot to stay within your acceptable target area as you press the trigger.

I was down the range earlier, thinking about this thread as I did some various things. Mostly I was thinking about how hot it was, as it was 106F, and my first goal was testing my Arcteryx Phasic shirt, which did a surprisingly good job of keeping me comfortable. Later, I did some two shot draws to a 7 yard target with my P09/Venom, and was getting .85-.95 for the two shots. I am still fighting the tipped up muzzle which is costing me time.



Then I worked pure speed with my iron sight P09, doing one shot draws and I was .58, .54, .51, and .51. Still some muzzle up, which I am working to eliminate, with the hope I can get my one shot draws into the high .40’s with a more direct presentation path.

[Jamie]

Great opening post GJM.
I'm tagging on as I am just now, after nearly 40 years of shooting, transitioning to RDS. At 64 years of age, my eyes require it of me.
I borrowed a friend's RMR 06 G 19 about 3 weeks ago and work dry fire presentations approximately 20 minutes a day. I've only live fired this RMR'd Glock 3 times, around 500 rounds.
I am quite surprised at my "acceptance" (mentally) of the dot movement and found that portion of my learning curve is not a significant issue.
I find I pick up the dot, on extension, roughly 22 out of 25 presentations (AIWB Archangel). I am looking for the dot, and may even "turtle neck" a bit as I am presenting the gun... I need to work on that.

Would you be so kind as to elaborate a bit on this statement Sir? "So, if you are presenting a red dot pistol with a classic press out, you are using your vision rather than your index to align your red dot."
I do understand the concept of "natural pointing" but feel I'm missing something here. Are you saying to simply accept your natural point or index and that this will bring the dot where it needs to be vs trying to "look the dot" into it's desired location? Probably a dumb question...

My thanks to you and all here for sharing your knowledge and expertise.

fwiw my RMR is on order and I'll be having my 17 milled for it. Learning a new skill set makes a old man happy!

[GJM]

Yes, I am saying to rely on your index to present the pistol, and then your vision to confirm dot alignment with the target as opposed to using your vision to first find and then align the dot.

[SC_Dave]

Similar to a red dot on a long gun, a slide mounted red dot on a service pistol offers a number of potential shooting advantages — an easily adjustable zero, low light capability, the ability to stay target focused, a usable aiming reference for mature eyes, and the ability to get full sighting information from a single dot as opposed to aligning and interpreting iron sights. There are two areas that many shooters transitioning to a red dot struggle with, slower speed on close targets and reliably/quickly finding the dot on the presentation. Here are some things to consider, that may help you improve in each of these area.

1) speed on close targets. With iron sights, depending upon target size and distance, we may use anything from just pointing the pistol, to indexing the slide, to a gross front sight, to a sharp front sight, and so on all the way through the continuum to a perfectly sharp front and rear sight with equal light and bars. Yet, when shooting close and gross targets with the red dot, the same shooter that might use far less than a sharp front and rear sight with equal light and bars to make the shot, insists on stopping the red dot and placing it on a precise spot on the target. If you understand that the red dot streaking anywhere within the target zone will result in an acceptable hit (assuming you press the trigger properly) you will get red dot speed on close targets equivalent or faster than with iron sights.

2) reliably acquiring the dot on presentation. With optimal iron sight presentations, your index will bring the iron sights onto the target, in alignment, and you will use vision just to confirm sight alignment, rather than look for sight alignment. Once you are on board with this philosophy, meaning your index gets the sights there, you can focus on what path your muzzle takes to the target. To steal something from TPC, when in doubt, act like a human. Try pointing at a spot on the wall with your finger and you will quickly see the natural path your body uses to point. Hint — this natural path does not look like a classic press out.

So, if you are presenting a red dot pistol with a classic press out, you are using your vision rather than your index to align your red dot. That is slower because it traces a circuitous route, and less reliable because you are not using your natural index you have spent your whole life developing each time you point at something. A good way to visualize an efficient draw path is to start with the pistol aligned in target and reverse the pistol all the way back into the holster. Using a direct presentation path, that aligns the pistol using index, with vision just used to confirm index, I have been able to frequently do a one shot red dot pistol draws to a seven yard target down into the .50’s from a Production rig type holster.

Hopefully these comments will give those struggling with red dot presentation speed and close shooting speed some things to consider.

This^ All of this^. I have been shooting a dot exclusively for about a year, I have between 9-10K rounds on it now. Not that what GJM said needs validation especially by me I will say that the key points IMO are staying target focused, understanding dots are not slow up close, relying on a proper presentation of good index and accepting the wobble.
SCD