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Thread: Columbus PD Videos - Thoughts on Gun Handling?

  1. #1
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Columbus PD Videos - Thoughts on Gun Handling?

    I posted this here, not to bash Columbus, Ohio PD. But because in seeing these videos make the rounds the last couple of days, I noted several "cringeworthy" (to me) moments and I'm trying to figure out if they should be "cringeworthy".

    First this video - https://twitter.com/OfficialLivePD/s...03202498408448 (click the link the video will load).

    https://twitter.com/@twitter/status/992603202498408448


    1) @0:22 an officer inside of a vehicle, drawing his gun, in preparation of a bailout, but seconds before the bailout occurs. Importantly, long before the vehicle is halted and when it is still, technically, moving in traffic.

    2) @0:43, officer driving the van that stops nearest the suspect. Exits the vehicle and given bodycam footage, draws his arm into a high ready-extended position and begins running forward towards the suspect. In the process he muzzles his partner who crosses in front of him at 0:44-0:45*.

    3) @0:47-0:51, officer who was previously muzzled by officer in 2), dives onto suspect with drawn handgun and begins struggling with the suspect and his own gun repeatedly smashes into the ground in front of him and the suspect. This one I can forgive, because he was working to restrain the suspect. But you can even hear his partner say, "Put your pistol away!" Before cuffing him.

    This video provides some different angles and more context: http://www.kansascity.com/news/natio...210453089.html

    4) In this second video, we see body cam footage of officer exiting Explorer - again gun drawn before vehicle is exited, again running with the gun in one hand, this time pumping up and down, muzzling officers and bystanders. But at 0:05 we hear, "Gun Gun Gun!" - *I believe this is why the other officer at 0:43 was running with his weapon pointed towards the suspect and therefore this may be acceptable.

    ___

    My thoughts on why cringeworthy.

    1) - I am not an LEO, nor an expert in firearms deployment from a vehicle, but this strikes me as bad tactics. - Drawing a firearm in a vehicle is often either a "draw or drive" situation, and I feel the passenger officer here, draws his firearm too far in advance and needless endangers himself and his partner (after he muzzles himself with his own gun). A similar situation in 4), although in that instance, it appears the vehicle was at least stopped. Am I wrong here?

    2) - I've been taught to move the gun into low ready when running with the weapon drawn. But as noted above, the officer here, may have heard the "Gun Gun Gun!" yell and was preparing to engage an armed suspect. That said, and everything is happening fast here, I have a hard time reconciling that this officer would have had a reasonable shot.

    3) - We often discuss the importance of drawing and looking a gun back into the holster. Wrestling with a suspect on the ground, with your gun drawn rarely seems like a good idea. Having wrestled with people on the ground, while armed, it's difficult to keep a weapon controlled, when you have it low and close to your body. Being sprawled out in the dirt and smashing your pistol into it, is a bad idea.

    ___

    So, all of that aside, I took a few things away from this.

    First, shoot/no-shoot decisions happen FAST (take point 2 for instance, there are <2 seconds there).

    Second, while we don't advocate citizens going hands-on with criminals to detain them. Officers should definitely consider how and when to reholster firearms before restraining suspects, even in a hurry.

    Three, don't draw your gun in a moving vehicle with your partner driving.

    Four, muzzle discipline in a dynamic environment is hard y'all.

    Five, I'm really glad this turned out well for everyone and the suspect appeared to give up once he lost his gun and was dogpiled. I'm glad no one got hurt here and everyone went home safe.

    ___

    I posted this here in the LE Forum, because it is most relevant to our officers here. And because it seems like the place to elicit feedback on the handling here.
    Last edited by Tom_Jones; 05-08-2018 at 12:02 AM. Reason: embedded tweet

  2. #2
    I wasn’t there, the bad guy was armed ,and it’s not Monday Morning anymore.

    You want cringeworthy gun handling,go hang out at a Cabelas on Saturdays. These cops did just fine.
    The Minority Marksman.
    "When you meet a swordsman, draw your sword: Do not recite poetry to one who is not a poet."
    -a Ch'an Buddhist axiom.

  3. #3
    Site Supporter Hambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post


    1) - I am not an LEO, nor an expert in firearms deployment from a vehicle, but this strikes me as bad tactics. - Drawing a firearm in a vehicle is often either a "draw or drive" situation, and I feel the passenger officer here, draws his firearm too far in advance and needless endangers himself and his partner (after he muzzles himself with his own gun). A similar situation in 4), although in that instance, it appears the vehicle was at least stopped. Am I wrong here?
    I'd say you are. An officer in this area was killed by an assailant who charged his car after a stop. If the officer had had his pistol in hand he could have engaged from inside the vehicle, but as it was he was way behind the curve.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom_Jones View Post
    Grandpa rocks.
    He's fucking awesome.
    "Gunfighting is a thinking man's game. So we might want to bring thinking back into it."-MDFA

  4. #4
    banana republican blues's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom_Jones View Post
    Grandpa rocks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hambo View Post
    He's fucking awesome.
    Yes he is! I can't stop smiling.
    There's nothing civil about this war.

    Read: Harrison Bergeron

  5. #5
    Site Supporter hufnagel's Avatar
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    ... but why didn't he use the cane?
    also, grandpa seems like he can move pretty darn well without that walking stick. that was some fine side shuffling right there.
    Rules to live by: 1. Eat meat, 2. Shoot guns, 3. Fire, 4. Gasoline, 5. Make juniors
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  6. #6
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    Grandpa? He didn't look that old to me.... Hmmmm.

    That is a typical foot chase ending. It's hard to say the gun should be put away before jumping on the bad guy. There are some chases that end up with the Officer needing to contact wound the suspect as the bad guy gun is brought out from under the body. There is no slow motion in real life. It is hard to see the gun fall to the ground while chasing someone.

    Short chase thanks to the citizen. When all was safe, I would probably have to tell the citizen to put his hand up. Then give him a high-five. Saying, "Good job."
    What you do right before you know you're going to be in a use of force incident, often determines the outcome of that use of force.

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