Original Colt M1911A1 Test Target T-10 Ring Sizes?

[RJ]

Does anyone know the scoring ring sizes for the Test Target that Colt used?

I thought it would be interesting to create one using my drawing tool, but my search is weak and I'm not seeing any information.

The target itself is apparently still available from Colt:

https://www.customshopinc.com/produc...0-test-target/

I believe these targets were included with pistols when sold, as I've seen a few examples with various for sale ads. Examples:






This last one is a screen shot out of a video on M1911A1 production at the Union Switch and Signal Company during WWII, showing what I am pretty sure is the same target, used for validating each gun at the factory.

The reason for the question stems from from looking over a copy of the "Federal Specification, Pistol, Caliber .45 Automatic: M1911A1", D-P-355a, September 16, 1964 I found online. This spec includes the specs on targeting and accuracy, but doesn't specify the "sighting image". I suspect this is the T-10 test target. I thought it would be kind of fun to shoot this target, and I can create one with my drawing tool, but I need to know what size the circles are.

By chance does anyone have one of these old T-10 or T-10A Test Targets, and would not mind measuring the rings for me?

I've looked at all the NRA B series targets already, in detail, and none of those sizes match up, including a B-2 50 ft slow fire or a modern B-8 repair center. Based on looking at a lot of photographs lately, I think the outermost circle is 9", exactly. If the target paper is 10x10, that would make sense. The center 10 ring is I think 1", and the others increase by 1", but I'm not 100% certain on that, either.

I've done quite a bit of searching on this, but so far the definition of this "T-10" seems to be eluding me.

[Jim Watson]

Well, you can buy one on Ebay, but $15? Ridiculous, even rediculous.

Let me see if I can find a Colt box to see if it retains the target.

[RJ]

Well, you can buy one on Ebay, but $15? Ridiculous, even rediculous.

Let me see if I can find a Colt box to see if it retains the target.

Thanks, obliged.

If it is the one I am thinking of, the eBay listing leads to the same Colt Custom Shop item.

[RJ]

Well..not exactly conclusive, but this morning's search of the archives of DoD led me to a federal web site called "ASSIST". This had a reference to the Federal Specification, which was superseded by D-P-355A, namely "MIL-P-1297B", dated July 8, 1958.

https://quicksearch.dla.mil/qsSearch.aspx

This looks like an earlier, typed version of D-P-355A, containing much the same information. In fact, the paragraph which jumped out at me was 4.4.7, Targeting and accuracy firing.

It occurred to me that the reason the phrase "sighting image" wasn't accompanied by a reference to a target figure is...because it really is a lot simpler than that. If you read the sentence "aligned at 6 o'clock on a 3-inch circle (sighting image)" to be, "aligned at 6 o-clock on a 3 inch circle (which by the way IS the sighting image, for spec purposes)", then things start to make sense. There IS no sighting image, per se; what they are telling you is that if you want to test this, use a 3" circle.

That's all there is to it.

In other words, the "Test Target T-10", at least as called out in the Federal Specification for the M1911A1 pistol, should be made with a 3" circle (and a 4" circle, and so on). Obviously I can't explain how the Colt Custom Shop T10 might or might not be different size rings than this (it looks like it, but I dunno).

At any rate, I think I'm satisfied based on this logic that the test target in the Union Switch and Signal video is "most likely" going to be the one I designed with the even inch circles, as per above, so I'm going to stop looking and go with that. I should probably add that my entire 32 years was in the Aerospace Business as a Systems / Project Engineer, working with DoD. I am very familiar with Government Specifications, so this investigation was pretty interesting for me.

If someone has a Colt Python, or Colt Gold Cup 1911, test target labeled T-10, I'm still interested in what the circle sizes are, but I think at least for me I've solved the mystery, for now.

Image of para 4.4.7 out of MIL-P-1297B:


I am working up a "clean" version of the "sighting image" so I can take it to the range this week. I'll post that pdf when I get done tweaking it.

[lwt16]

https://www.coltforum.com/threads/py...-rings.403115/

Is this any help?

[RJ]

https://www.coltforum.com/threads/py...-rings.403115/

Is this any help?

Thanks but...I'm not tracking? That link is to a thread I started, to ask the same question, from the Colt guys. I have not had much luck with that, as you can see if you peruse the thread. I asked the same question in the couple 1911 forums I'm on as well, but no enchilada there either.

[lwt16]

Oops. Didn’t realize you were the OP on that site.

Apologies. I did ask my brother in law if his Colt had one in the box and it did not.

[RJ]

Oops. Didn’t realize you were the OP on that site.

Apologies. I did ask my brother in law if his Colt had one in the box and it did not.

No worries, I appreciate you asking.

[awp_101]

If the black is 3" and the spec is to hold 6 o'clock on the black, I wonder what the additional ~3" circle under the black in the first image is used for?

I'm still working on my first cup of coffee so if the answer is obvious it's not clicking yet...

[RJ]

If the black is 3" and the spec is to hold 6 o'clock on the black, I wonder what the additional ~3" circle under the black in the first image is used for?

I'm still working on my first cup of coffee so if the answer is obvious it's not clicking yet...

My assumption in that particular image is that the 3" circle below the black, is centered at the "6 o'clock" position. This would correspond with para 4.4.7, which specifies that hold for the Targeting and Accuracy test.

Out of an aside, I think with 99% certainty this (para 4.4.7) is the definition of the "6 o'clock hold" that I've heard about ever since I got into handguns 10 or so years ago. I never saw a definition of what it actually was until I started researching this topic.

Since I have a spreadsheet already for optics like this, I'm pondering running a set of numbers to predict offset errors in POI at different ranges with a "6 o clock hold at 15 yard" iron sights. And I'm bored.