Question on cast rifle loads

[entropy]

I have been rifle reloading now for a number of years. I’m familiar to “jumping”, “jamming”, finding optimal distance off the lands...etc. I produce some pretty decent ammo which performs out to 1K+.

I just found out loading cast is a whole other animal.

I picked up a nice vintage Winchester 94, and decided I wanted to load cast for it. I slugged the barrel (.308) and ordered up two different bullets from my “go-to” guys at Montana Bullet Works. A Lyman 173gr with a gas check, and a 165gr with a plain base of similar design. Both were ordered sized .309. Both were shown recommended for the 30-30. I researched loads, settling on Varget for the 173gr and Unique for reduced loads with the 165. Loaded them up, and they looked puuuuuurdy. I obviously didnt load a dummy round, nor did I measure distance to the lands with either slug. My “theory” was that the bullet was designed for the caliber, it had a crimping grove, and was the same approximate length of a factory jacketed. I also had ZERO desire to “push it” loading a very moderate charge for both.

Well imagine my surprise when loading my third round (single load) I noticed it was rather stiff to close the lever. Ejecting the round, the bullet remained in the barrel giving the action a nice douse of Varget. Stopped right there. Popped the slug out with a cleaning rod and took a look. Sure enough...bullet was nice and engraved. Never saw that coming. Made sure the bore was clear, and pulled out a box of factory to sight in the new receiver sight. I figured it shouldnt be a total loss.

So...who here has experience with cast rifle loads? I’ve done a bit of “web research” and found this is not only common...but perhaps desired. Unlike jacketed bullets, jamming cast “may” not be a bad thing. Right now, I have about 40rds of awesome looking cast loads awaiting my edumication. See below.

Attachment 25822

[Malamute]

Part of the problem is the throating of different makes varies at times. Bullets of course vary considerably in how fat they are ahead of the case. Engaging the rifling to the degree it can pull the bullet isnt good. Thjeres a couple ways to deal with it, one, find another bullet that doesnt do that, open up the throat in your gun, or seat the bullets a bit deeper and crimp with Lee factory crimp type die.

For reduced loads, they may be OK to just shoot up. If going anywhere near full power, id be cautious about shooting them, maybe shoot one, see how the primer looks and case head expansion measures out, shoot another, measure case, repeat until happy with being safe. William Iorg on shootersforum has done tons of load work on 30-30s along with several other guys there, a search of his posts* turns up quite a lot of interesting information. Hes mentioned how much case head expansion hes willing to deal with, compared to known pressure loads. Hes worked with 30-30 Ackley improved as well as most of the Winchester 94 cartridge variations (307, 356, the Marlin rounds), and some other wildcats and is a very good resource for lever gun load info.

The Winchesters usually shoot cast fairly well without too much grief. Marlins with microgroove barrels often take more work to find a bullet and sizing diameter they like, many just give up. Id suggest looking around on the castboolit forum, maybe sign up and ask, along with your pics. Theres some really good resources regarding cast bullets and reloading in general there. if you do post there, give us a link here, Id like to see what they have to say about it.

Do you have the info on what the exact mold make and model is for the bullets you have? Many cast bullst companies give the mold numbers, which can be very helpful in getting info on problems like this, or duplicating known good loads.

Edit:* a start on looking with some comments about case head expansion https://www.google.com/search?ei=YOb....0.Ml3dPaV67Og

[Trooper224]

I've fired cast .30-06 loads out of a 1903. They make a nice, reduced gallery style load that's accurate out to 100 yards. Something for plinking, but nothing anywhere near a full power load.

[Hambo]

Search castboolits.com. There's a lot of cast rifle reloading experience there.

[entropy]

Appreciate the input. Yes, the Boolits site is a plethora of info. I’m picking up,a Lyman cast guide too...not exactly a popular shelf item anymore.

Again, the goal is not to hotrod, but get a nice 1700-1800-ish gas check load and maybe a 1300-something for a plinker.

[entropy]

Did a bunch of research. Bought a few manuals. Still not definitive on the issue. So here is my plan(s):

1. Measure the COAL by dropping a bullet into the breech and taking a measurement from the bore. Remove the slug, take another measurement to the breech face to establish a rough COAL for that particular bullet.

2. Trim a case to minimum length (or slightly less), crimp in the crimp groove as before, and see if I can get the shell to chamber without jamming into the rifling. Might have to use some dykem to assure there is still some freebore.

3. Ignore the crimp groove and crimp slightly above into the driving band.

4. A combination of 2 & 3.


Kind of running out of ideas after this. It’s puzzling that both bullets are specifically designed for the 30-30. The barrel on the rifle is original. It’s been slugged to measure .308. Jacketed designs all work just fine.

As a last resort, I suppose I could drop down to a 150gr or even a 120-ish with a shorter profile. If I end up using jacketed for anything serious and use lighter weight cast for plinking it won’t be the end of the world. It’s more of a challenge now than anything.

[jandbj]

Very interested in this topic as I am brand new to rifle reloading.

http://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharris...The%20Load.htm Poke around the rest of Ed’s articles too. There is some gold in there!

I have 1k of these on had that I’ll be loading for 30-30 & .308 with 11-14 grains of red dot (loading data direct from Badman Bullets).
https://www.badmanbullets.com/Online...Coated+Bullets

[entropy]

Thanks for the link. That “Appalachian Assault Rifle” article has been posted here before. It’s a classic and is saved in the hard drive. Along with the Red Dot, another classic load is 10gr Unique. About the same performance. As with any of the pistol/shotgun powders, paying attention while tossing the charge is a must.

[willie]

Laser-cast bullets sells an excellent 30-30 bullet(170 gr RNFPbb) sized .310. Crimp groove is in the correct place and nose accommodates 30-30 lever guns. Base is plain and not gas checked which is ok. They pay the freight. Consensus is that .309 diameter is too small. I urge you to clean your bore to remove all copper jacket material if you have not already done so. If you have Red Dot or Green Dot or Blue Dot shotgun powders and wish to use them here, pm me for some safe and accurate data.

In your notes you might record overall lengths of loaded rounds that function without issue. I suggest that you use functioning as the main criterion and not seating to the rifling. Seating to the rifling, although a theoretical best practice, will not prove to be a consideration for loading cast bullets in a lever action rifle. With experimentation you may discover that larger diameter cast bullets produce more accurate ammo and also are less likely to cause barrel leading. You may find that .311 or.312 diameters work best if the rifle will chamber them. It probably will. I suggest experimenting with shotgun powders first and then proceeding to rifle powders. This way you will keep your discovery phase simple. I recommend keeping velocity levels under 1250 fps with shotgun powders like Unique and the Dot series. Red Dot works nicely. 4.5 grains through and including 7.5 grains will give outstanding accuracy. Top velocity here is 1200 fps. Pressures are low.

[entropy]

Thanks for the info. Yep, bore and barrel copper free. I use the same product (Patch Out plus the Accellerator) that I use on my precision rifles. Back home tomorrow, prolly spend an evening at the bench loading some tests up before I head back to work. Keep you posted.