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Thread: I'm just going to say it

  1. #51
    Member SecondsCount's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCFD273 View Post
    What SD’s are you getting with your carbine. I ask because I’m willing to bet your 1moa rifle isn’t 1moa out past 100yds.
    Why wouldn't it be? If MOA is a unit to measure angle, what would cause the angle to change?
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  2. #52
    Member TCFD273's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SecondsCount View Post
    Why wouldn't it be? If MOA is a unit to measure angle, what would cause the angle to change?

    Changes in velocity will cause vertical stringing.



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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by SecondsCount View Post
    Why wouldn't it be? If MOA is a unit to measure angle, what would cause the angle to change?
    Now that I have time for a better reply:

    During load development, it’s not uncommon to be able to shoot decent groups with ammo with velocities varying up to 150fps. I no longer shoot groups with initial load development, honestly I don’t even need a target to find a load I want to work with, or match factory ammo. I just look for pressure flat spots, then play with seating depth to get it to group. Example- Prime ammo shoots exceptionally well (low SD’s) in one of my guns and Federal GMM shoots well in another.

    Ammo plays a huge role in “precision” shooting. Once you have the fundamentals, great ammo can make almost any modern production rifle shoot very well.

    I would rather have a rifle ammo combo that shot 1moa with single digit SD’s than a 0.5moa rifle ammo combo that had SD’s in the 20’s.

    If we’re are talking about hitting IPSC size targets out to 400/500yds that doesn’t require anything special ammo/rifle wise. But in this thread people are posting about accuracy and precision...that’s a different ball game.


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  4. #54
    Site Supporter Trukinjp13's Avatar
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    I'm just going to say it

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    Last edited by Trukinjp13; 05-09-2018 at 11:23 AM. Reason: Erased comment.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCFD273 View Post
    ....

    Ammo plays a huge role in “precision” shooting. Once you have the fundamentals, great ammo can make almost any modern production rifle shoot very well.

    .....
    I agree that ammunition choice plays a part in accuracy, no matter what the distance.

    The question I was asking was in regards to Minute Of Angle. 1 MOA at 100 yards is equal to 1.047 inches and at 1000 yards is 10.47 inches. If the gun is capable of putting 5 or 10 shots inside of an inch at 100, why wouldn't it be able to put that group inside of 10" at 1000? I realize that there are factors such as ammo, wind, scope capability, and of course the shooter, but if the inherent accuracy of the carbine is there then why not?

    By the way, a 77 Nosler Custom Competition bullet launched from an 18" AR, still has enough energy to go all the way through a gallon milk jug at 1030 yards
    -Seconds Count. Misses Don't-

  6. #56
    Member TCFD273's Avatar
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    I'm just going to say it

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondsCount View Post
    I agree that ammunition choice plays a part in accuracy, no matter what the distance.

    The question I was asking was in regards to Minute Of Angle. 1 MOA at 100 yards is equal to 1.047 inches and at 1000 yards is 10.47 inches. If the gun is capable of putting 5 or 10 shots inside of an inch at 100, why wouldn't it be able to put that group inside of 10" at 1000? I realize that there are factors such as ammo, wind, scope capability, and of course the shooter, but if the inherent accuracy of the carbine is there then why not?

    By the way, a 77 Nosler Custom Competition bullet launched from an 18" AR, still has enough energy to go all the way through a gallon milk jug at 1030 yards
    Wind and ammo are huge...wind being the biggest issue.

    Do you shoot long range?

    Just ran some numbers with my Ballistic software and MK262 ammo

    Ok, let’s take your 1moa gun-

    An SD of 25 at 1000yds will give you a vertical spread of 16”. If your shooting a 12x18 plate at 1000 and hold center, you could very easily miss and think it was you or the gun...nope it’s your store bought MATCH AMMO.

    Now let’s take your 1moa rifle at 1000yds and give it an SD of 0 but let’s say you missed your wind call by 2mph, that’s pretty easy to do. You held 10 but it’s actually 12mph. Same 12x18 plate, center hold, you missed by 19” off the plate.

    I know I’m getting way off into the weeds here, but I’ll reiterate....so many things go into shooting accurately. Just talking about rifles is similar to talking about buying a new pistol or trigger so you’ll be a better shooter. Doesn’t work that way. It’s a package deal...shooter, ammo and rifle






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    Last edited by TCFD273; 05-09-2018 at 07:40 PM.

  7. #57
    Site Supporter farscott's Avatar
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    I like the MOA concept for adjusting POA/POI as it can be done with two circles, but I do not like the description of a gun "shooting within a MOA". Here is my whiny, pedantic reasoning.

    For elevation, I can use a circle with a radius that starts from my shooting location and ends at the target with the circle being vertical to align with the elevation adjustment of my scope. If the POI is 1.047" low at 100 yards, I can adjust the scope exactly 1 minute (60 minutes in a degree and 360 degrees in a circle).

    For windage, I can do the same except the circle is horizontal and aligned with the horizontal markings in my scope. If POI is 1.047" left at 100 yards, I can adjust the scope 1 minute and be on target. Works just fine and makes sense as a minute is a measure, in this case, of angular subtension.

    But if my POI is 1.047" high and 1.047" left, I adjust the 1 MOA for both windage and elevation, and the total POI movement should be 1.481" as the POI movement is the hypotenuse of a right triangle that is 1.047" on two of the three sides. So the total distance from POA to POI is the square root of 2*(1.047")*(1.047") or 1.481". Even though I adjusted windage by 1 MOA and elevation by 1 MOA, my movement is larger.

    Which gets to the nasty part of the math. Most people measure a group size by finding the longest distance between any of the impact points. I find that sloppy as it lumps (or ignores) horizontal dispersion with vertical dispersion. I think of group size in terms of both horizontal and vertical dispersion and use the diameter of a circle that fits all of the impacts as my definition of group size.

    So if I shoot at 100 yards and my farthest impacts from group center at 1.047" high and 1.047" to the right, my group size is not 1 MOA (1.047"); it is 1.481". Big difference in the numbers.

  8. #58
    Member SecondsCount's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCFD273 View Post
    Wind and ammo are huge...wind being the biggest issue.

    Do you shoot long range?

    Just ran some numbers with my Ballistic software and MK262 ammo

    Ok, let’s take your 1moa gun-

    An SD of 25 at 1000yds will give you a vertical spread of 16”. If your shooting a 12x18 plate at 1000 and hold center, you could very easily miss and think it was you or the gun...nope it’s your store bought MATCH AMMO.

    Now let’s take your 1moa rifle at 1000yds and give it an SD of 0 but let’s say you missed your wind call by 2mph, that’s pretty easy to do. You held 10 but it’s actually 12mph. Same 12x18 plate, center hold, you missed by 19” off the plate.

    I know I’m getting way off into the weeds here, but I’ll reiterate....so many things go into shooting accurately. Just talking about rifles is similar to talking about buying a new pistol or trigger so you’ll be a better shooter. Doesn’t work that way. It’s a package deal...shooter, ammo and rifle

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    Yes, I shoot long range. Sometimes with my carbine as my first post in this thread touched on. I feel like you are trying to take the focus off the question

    While the 223/5.56 is not the best cartridge for shooting long range, it will keep up with a 308 which a lot of people used for that purpose. The 6 and 6.5 calibers have started to dominate in that area, purely based on the higher BC bullets that they can send downrange. I much prefer my 6BR or 6x47L with a high BC for the job but the carbine is fun and cheap.

    Wind can be your best friend or worst enemy It is one of the reasons I enjoy shooting the 223 at long range as you can see the effect wind has on the bullet much better than with the higher performing calibers.

    The beauty of shooting my carbine at that distance is that there is low recoil and you can use your first shot as a spotter, then follow up with a quick holdover to compensate.
    -Seconds Count. Misses Don't-

  9. #59
    Gucci gear, Walmart skill Darth_Uno's Avatar
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    I'm very information oriented. Very clinical. If I don't shoot well (which is not uncommon, I'm a far better handgun shooter than rifle) I prefer to know it was me and not my rifle.

  10. #60
    A rifle may shoot within MOA at 100 yards but 3 MOA at 600 even without wind because of bullet rpm. A slower twist (thus a lower bullet rpm) may be enough to stabilize the bullet out to 100 yards, but as the bullet travels, the rpms drop. They can drop enough that the bullet loses stability which will open up your groups at further ranges.
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