Criminals and firearms training

[Dagga Boy]

I still listen to the time Mas Ayoob interviewed Bob Stasch of the Chicago PD. He did pretty much everything wrong by PF standards...carried a .45 caliber pistol, with XS sights, usually firing one handed with minimal front sight attention.

Yet he dropped a not insignificant number of criminals doing so. He was by his own admission in the interview, not a bullseye or precision shooter, but when he shot, he shot to live. He would make the decision that at the end of the day, he was going to make it home.

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What was interesting was he described himself as an “instinctive point shooter” (IIRC), and yet perfectly describes using a flash sight picture as popularized by Gunsite. Also, a very common practice of successful folks of using small targets on big targets to practice.

[Casual Friday]

10ish years ago on GT there was a thread about criminals basically being easy to take down because they don't know jack about firearms or shooting. One of the respected leo's on the board pointed out that the average street criminal who's busted with a Jennings in his pocket and mismatched ammo may fall into that category, but there are a ton of them out there that know how to do some real swaylay shit. He talked about a bust he'd made in which they found training tapes and books from people like Jeff Cooper and Massad Ayoob, and evidence to suggest he'd been to several training classes over the years.

It was a real eye opening post that I wished I'd saved. It helped cure me of the idea that I was better trained than anyone I'd likely face.

[45dotACP]

I'd look at armed criminals like unarmed criminals. Care to guess how many unarmed criminals have experience fighting? Wanna bet that there is at least a passing familiarity with some form of boxing, wrestling, MMA or some other type of martial art? I think there is.

Those same guys aren't oblivious to the existence of guns. They know guns exist and anybody who trains a physical, contact martial art knows that a real fight isn't pretty and that effective violence is a matter of practice and often ferocity. That competitive drive carries over to weapons. Easily.

Compare those criminals to the average person who has never once taken a light contact punch to the face by a buddy in the Dojo.

I can't remember his name but there was an officer on this forum who has significant martial arts experience who posted a while back about arresting a dude who was a MMA fighter and it was eye opening to me and a good story to boot.

To think that the average criminal will wilt away at the sight or sound of your firearm, or drop to the floor and plead for mercy if you catch him with a straight left strikes me as optimistic at best and naive at worst.

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[Mark D]

What was interesting was he described himself as an “instinctive point shooter” (IIRC), and yet perfectly describes using a flash sight picture as popularized by Gunsite. Also, a very common practice of successful folks of using small targets on big targets to practice.

Bob Stach is a big believer in head shots too.

Mas's interview with Bob is excellent. I'd encourage anyone who hasn't it heard it to give it a listen. It can be found on the pro arms podcast.

[BehindBlueI's]

10ish years ago on GT there was a thread about criminals basically being easy to take down because they don't know jack about firearms or shooting. One of the respected leo's on the board pointed out that the average street criminal who's busted with a Jennings in his pocket and mismatched ammo may fall into that category, but there are a ton of them out there that know how to do some real swaylay shit. He talked about a bust he'd made in which they found training tapes and books from people like Jeff Cooper and Massad Ayoob, and evidence to suggest he'd been to several training classes over the years.

It was a real eye opening post that I wished I'd saved. It helped cure me of the idea that I was better trained than anyone I'd likely face.

If you're just Joe Bob the Average Guy, Mr. Jennings is still your most likely opponent. Guys doing street robberies and random home break-ins aren't known for their forethought, dedication to craft, and self-discipline.

The guys I've seen who I would consider remotely practiced/trained are involved in organized crime. Dope families, etc. People running a business that just happens to be illegal. Like any successful business owner, a certain level of being a self starter and motivated has to be there. But they seldom target random people, it's not worth the risk and attention.

[Mark D]

The guys I've seen who I would consider remotely practiced/trained are involved in organized crime. Dope families, etc. People running a business that just happens to be illegal. Like any successful business owner, a certain level of being a self starter and motivated has to be there. But they seldom target random people, it's not worth the risk and attention.

Related: Varg Freeborn talks quite a bit about higher level criminals, and the differences between them and low-level crims, as well as everyday people. Varg has a unique perspective on this issue, having grown up in a violent criminal family, and then spending 5 years in prison.

In his book ("Violence of Mind") he states the real difference between higher-level violent criminals is their a) willingness to commit violence, and b) their high level of experience with violence. In his opinion, the most important elements to victory are mindset (what he calls orientation) and conditioning. Technique and formal training are much less important in his hierarchy.

Having said that, we don't need to look very far to see how dangerous someone can be if they combine mindset, conditioning, formal training, and a complete disregard for the law.

[Kyle Reese]

Related: Varg Freeborn talks quite a bit about higher level criminals, and the differences between them and low-level crims, as well as everyday people. Varg has a unique perspective on this issue, having grown up in a violent criminal family, and then spending 5 years in prison.

In his book ("Violence of Mind") he states the real difference between higher-level violent criminals is their a) willingness to commit violence, and b) their high level of experience with violence. In his opinion, the most important elements to victory are mindset (what he calls orientation) and conditioning. Technique and formal training are much less important in his hierarchy.

Having said that, we don't need to look very far to see how dangerous someone can be if they combine mindset, conditioning, formal training, and a complete disregard for the law.

Just ordered the book.

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[BehindBlueI's]

In his book ("Violence of Mind") he states the real difference between higher-level violent criminals is their a) willingness to commit violence, and b) their high level of experience with violence.

To make sure we're not talking past one another, when you say "higher level" do you mean the level of violence the criminal will use or do you mean higher in the hierarchy sense, as in more successful, the guy further up the food chain, etc.

[Mark D]

To make sure we're not talking past one another, when you say "higher level" do you mean the level of violence the criminal will use or do you mean higher in the hierarchy sense, as in more successful, the guy further up the food chain, etc.

Generally Varg focuses on how to defend against criminals who are very skilled at using violence. They're higher order in the same way that a tiger shark can be considered higher order than a Tuna. Both kill other fish, but the shark is obviously more dangerous. (Caveat: I've only read his book once, and I'm probably doing a crappy job of paraphrasing him). And for clarity, I don't disagree with any of your positions, just adding an additional perspective.

[FNFAN]

Bob Stach is a big believer in head shots too.

Mas's interview with Bob is excellent. I'd encourage anyone who hasn't it heard it to give it a listen. It can be found on the pro arms podcast.

Was he the guy that emphasized shoot and move as being one of the great predictors of successful gunfighting? I read an excellent article some time ago from one of the more active Chicago area officers emphasizing movement.

There are all flavors of criminals out there, dumb, smart, trained, untrained. I remember one nightshift briefing with a Western States BOLO about a group doing pharmacy burglaries with what was believed to be two layoff guys with scoped rifles. Shit got quiet for a moment in the rollcall room.