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Thread: Criminals and firearms training

  1. #21
    Site Supporter JohnO's Avatar
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    I remember reading that gangs were sending members into the military to learn tactics and techniques. Then after the member's separation they returned and taught what they learned to the gang.

    http://www.businessinsider.com/fbi-g...litary-2011-10

  2. #22
    Site Supporter PearTree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagga Boy View Post
    Criminal culture. Unlike our current snowflake generation Why youth culture, the youth criminal culture loves guns, respects competency with weapons and martial and fighting skills. Technology advances have made training very accesable to them. There was always a level of respect for those gang members who could shoot and handle firearms well and who could fight Good amongst their group. Which is absolutely contrary to the police culture and the current culture of citizenry. I had FAR more crooks comment or recognize my gear, guns, and how I handled myself with firearms in a positive or respectful way than I ever did from my cop culture where I was considered a misfit.
    Quoted to stress the truth in these words and it bears repeating. While the protesters may be getting the most attention, the youth who are in the crime culture are the same as they have always been. A tried and true precursor for violence in my experience is someone who takes an interest in my weapon and wants to talk about training and ammunition. Those are the ones who you know are in the thick of it and caution is required.

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  3. #23
    Site Supporter PNWTO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreggW View Post

    Active criminals with a record don’t get in. Period. Enlistment standards are higher now than they have ever been. Do gang bangers get in the military? Occasionally. Do they stay in? Rarely. They make themselves known pretty quickly. Do they make it to or through advanced training where they learn how to do anything other than basic range training? Even a smaller percentage make it that far.

    The military is full of a significant percentage of shit bags? You should know better trooper. That is a total bullshit statement and I have a real issue with it. If I made a similar statement about the LEO community, which I will not and would not, you would go completely apeshit. That statement is hyperbole at best. I’m honestly surprised that you would say something like that
    I know of or have served with individuals who received waivers for felonies and other assorted low-life activities. If one was to enlist between '01 to about '09ish there were few barriers to entry. Really egregious crimes notwithstanding. Stand outside a barracks in SoCal or VA and see the individuals who eagerly roll out with colors and affiliations flying proud. Again, this is a small percentage but it does exist and, with the exception of high profile incidents, isn't handled that well. Enlistment standards are high currently but they haven't been in the past, especially in the rah rah murica years, and if those individuals meet the lowest common denominator that is the key to service longevity then they are probably still in.

    The military is full of some really good people, but there are literally thousands upon thousands of shitbirds in the mix as well. Some firearms trainers who have contracts with Mil/LE organizations will run background checks upon registration but I wish the practice was standardized.
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  4. #24
    Site Supporter psalms144.1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PNWTO View Post
    I know of or have served with individuals who received waivers for felonies and other assorted low-life activities. If one was to enlist between '01 to about '09ish there were few barriers to entry. Really egregious crimes notwithstanding.
    One of my first big dope cases was involving a sailor who had been OTH discharged from the Army for drug dealing, then got "waivered" into the Navy post 9/11. Not surprisingly, by 2003, he was slinging crack on and off the base where he was stationed...

    An off-base homicide I worked with the locals involved a sailor who wore Crip colors, hung out with suspected Crip members, and fought with a suspected Blood over a girl (shocker!). When I put in my first report that it was a suspected gang-related homicide, the Navy brass absolutely had a shit hemorrhage. The fact that the dead sailor who was hanging out with gang members and shot by a gang member was driving his Division Officer's vehicle at the time of his death didn't phase the brass - they just didn't want the "gang related" press...

    My first child pornography bust was on a USN officer. He was in an "admin hold" status during the investigation - for darned near two years. When we finally secured indictments, the Navy Administratively Separated him in under 12 hours, to make sure there was no headline about a Navy Officer involved with child pornography.

    I could go on, but you guys get the idea. A lot of times, the brass doesn't want to know or even think about the truth.
    Last edited by psalms144.1; 04-26-2018 at 01:16 PM.

  5. #25
    Let’s steer the discussion away from “military vs law enforcement shitbirds”. The pragmatic reality is there are nonzero numbers of dirtbags with badges and military creds. No agency the size of the US DoD or a metropolitan law enforcement agency is exempt from that mathematical fact. There isn’t a background check in history that can ID a candidate smart and lucky enough to avoid getting caught breaking the law.

    So,returning to the subject of criminals and training; bad guys have access to both the internet and the old-school knowledge base of other crooks. As such I don’t operate under the notion a bad guy is automatically untrained or inexperienced.
    I’ll end with this last relevant point; while many armed citizens are mechanically better shooters then criminals, most have the situational awareness of a brick. Microsecond Bill Drills won’t do squat if you let the perp get to conversational distance without being visually challenged . Conversely, you don’t need to be Robbie Leatham to deliver a round into a vital area at 1’ distance , a distance all too easy to achieve when the mark is head down updating their Instagram.

    The training advantage as I view it isn’t in shooting mechanics; it’s in reading people and nonverbal cues to ID a potential attacker while he’s still far enough away to be avoided nonviolently. “Hey sir what time ya got” is just as deadly of an attack tool as a 1911 at close range.
    The Minority Marksman.
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  6. #26
    Gardone, I respect your contributions to this forum. However, The previous post is absolutely the best post I’ve read from you.


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  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by GardoneVT View Post
    Let’s steer the discussion away from “military vs law enforcement shitbirds”. The pragmatic reality is there are nonzero numbers of dirtbags with badges and military creds. No agency the size of the US DoD or a metropolitan law enforcement agency is exempt from that mathematical fact. There isn’t a background check in history that can ID a candidate smart and lucky enough to avoid getting caught breaking the law.

    So,returning to the subject of criminals and training; bad guys have access to both the internet and the old-school knowledge base of other crooks. As such I don’t operate under the notion a bad guy is automatically untrained or inexperienced.
    I’ll end with this last relevant point; while many armed citizens are mechanically better shooters then criminals, most have the situational awareness of a brick. Microsecond Bill Drills won’t do squat if you let the perp get to conversational distance without being visually challenged . Conversely, you don’t need to be Robbie Leatham to deliver a round into a vital area at 1’ distance , a distance all too easy to achieve when the mark is head down updating their Instagram.

    The training advantage as I view it isn’t in shooting mechanics; it’s in reading people and nonverbal cues to ID a potential attacker while he’s still far enough away to be avoided nonviolently. “Hey sir what time ya got” is just as deadly of an attack tool as a 1911 at close range.
    I swear we need a “Hall of Wisdom” around here for gold nugget posts like this.
    “Conspiracy theories are just spoiler alerts these days.”

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by GardoneVT View Post
    Let’s steer the discussion away from “military vs law enforcement shitbirds”. The pragmatic reality is there are nonzero numbers of dirtbags with badges and military creds. No agency the size of the US DoD or a metropolitan law enforcement agency is exempt from that mathematical fact. There isn’t a background check in history that can ID a candidate smart and lucky enough to avoid getting caught breaking the law.

    So,returning to the subject of criminals and training; bad guys have access to both the internet and the old-school knowledge base of other crooks. As such I don’t operate under the notion a bad guy is automatically untrained or inexperienced.
    I’ll end with this last relevant point; while many armed citizens are mechanically better shooters then criminals, most have the situational awareness of a brick. Microsecond Bill Drills won’t do squat if you let the perp get to conversational distance without being visually challenged . Conversely, you don’t need to be Robbie Leatham to deliver a round into a vital area at 1’ distance , a distance all too easy to achieve when the mark is head down updating their Instagram.

    The training advantage as I view it isn’t in shooting mechanics; it’s in reading people and nonverbal cues to ID a potential attacker while he’s still far enough away to be avoided nonviolently. “Hey sir what time ya got” is just as deadly of an attack tool as a 1911 at close range.
    Skeeter Skelton said something very similar back in 1969 with regard to criminals of the old west:

    http://www.darkcanyon.net/gunmen_of_el_paso.htm

    Today's handgunners could skunk any of the oldtimers. Slick, accurate, double-action guns, scientifically designed belts and holsters, a plentitude of practice and ammunition - all these factors make the handgun man of the present easily the master of the best of the 19th-century gunfighters. But turn the Selmans, Hardins, Stoudenmires, and Outlaws loose in the same wild border town against any of today's civilized sixgun experts, and I submit that there would soon be no experts. the reason is one that many of today's antigun fanatics fail to grasp. A shooter and a killer are two different things.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    Skeeter Skelton said something very similar back in 1969 with regard to criminals of the old west:

    http://www.darkcanyon.net/gunmen_of_el_paso.htm
    I still listen to the time Mas Ayoob interviewed Bob Stasch of the Chicago PD. He did pretty much everything wrong by PF standards...carried a .45 caliber pistol, with XS sights, usually firing one handed with minimal front sight attention.

    Yet he dropped a not insignificant number of criminals doing so. He was by his own admission in the interview, not a bullseye or precision shooter, but when he shot, he shot to live. He would make the decision that at the end of the day, he was going to make it home.

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  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by 45dotACP View Post
    I still listen to the time Mas Ayoob interviewed Bob Stasch of the Chicago PD. He did pretty much everything wrong by PF standards...carried a .45 caliber pistol, with XS sights, usually firing one handed with minimal front sight attention.
    That is a GREAT interview.


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