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Thread: Criminals and firearms training

  1. #11
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMWINCLE View Post
    Not LE, but I camr across some info on this topic a few years ago you may find interesting.

    "Violent Encounters: A Study of Felonious Assaults on Our Nation’s Law Enforcement Officers" was a publication from the FBI where researchers identified 40 cases of serious attacks on police officers and then interviewed both the officers and the attackers involved.

    I haven't been able to find the complete publication, but there are excerpts and summaries around.

    1 summary at http://www.forcescience.org/fsnews/62.html quotes:



    Greg Ellifritz references this study and has some additional thoughts:

    http://www.activeresponsetraining.ne...-vs-experience
    That study is complete horse shit. Self reporting is notoriously unreliable, particularly when setting aside ego and some level of introspection is involved. Criminals lie. WTF would you expect them to tell the truth about how often they practice. Also, you count cranking off a few rounds on a dope counter as "practice"? Come on.

    Take a look at self-reporting of what guns criminals carry. Then take a look at actual records of what was confiscated. They don't match. Lots of "Glocks" are Hi points. Even "back in the day" they *say* they carried a .357 Python but got caught with a .25 Raven.
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by GreggW View Post
    I should know better than to reply to this before I’ve had coffee but going to do it anyways.

    Ill advised? Take that shit elsewhere.

    Active criminals with a record don’t get in. Period. Enlistment standards are higher now than they have ever been. Do gang bangers get in the military? Occasionally. Do they stay in? Rarely. They make themselves known pretty quickly. Do they make it to or through advanced training where they learn how to do anything other than basic range training? Even a smaller percentage make it that far.

    The military is full of a significant percentage of shit bags? You should know better trooper. That is a total bullshit statement and I have a real issue with it. If I made a similar statement about the LEO community, which I will not and would not, you would go completely apeshit. That statement is hyperbole at best. I’m honestly surprised that you would say something like that

    There are documented cases of gang members getting into the military. It happens. Yes gangs such as MS13 have tried to use the military to gain training. But honestly it’s easier for them to do that in other countries. The military is not the jungle gym of criminal actors that you would lead others to believe.
    This. The Air Force docket was full of drug related court martial cases when I was in. That tells me OSI was doing an efficient job in rooting out the dirtbags. Note that the dockets don’t include cases where dirtbags get separated by order of the commander in lieu of a time consuming court martial.
    The Minority Marksman.
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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by GardoneVT View Post
    This. The Air Force docket was full of drug related court martial cases when I was in. That tells me OSI was doing an efficient job in rooting out the dirtbags. Note that the dockets don’t include cases where dirtbags get separated by order of the commander in lieu of a time consuming court martial.
    Nothing personal but if I'm trying to learn about weapons and tactics to up my violent crime game I joining the Army infantry or the Marines, not the USAF.

  4. #14
    Site Supporter Trooper224's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreggW View Post
    I should know better than to reply to this before I’ve had coffee but going to do it anyways.

    Ill advised? Take that shit elsewhere.

    Active criminals with a record don’t get in. Period. Enlistment standards are higher now than they have ever been. Do gang bangers get in the military? Occasionally. Do they stay in? Rarely. They make themselves known pretty quickly. Do they make it to or through advanced training where they learn how to do anything other than basic range training? Even a smaller percentage make it that far.

    The military is full of a significant percentage of shit bags? You should know better trooper. That is a total bullshit statement and I have a real issue with it. If I made a similar statement about the LEO community, which I will not and would not, you would go completely apeshit. That statement is hyperbole at best. I’m honestly surprised that you would say something like that

    There are documented cases of gang members getting into the military. It happens. Yes gangs such as MS13 have tried to use the military to gain training. But honestly it’s easier for them to do that in other countries. The military is not the jungle gym of criminal actors that you would lead others to believe.
    No Gregg, unless the mods object I'll keep my shit right here.

    I should know and I do. Being a member of a family with a long history of military service, including myself as well as having children and their spouses currently serving, I believe I possess a sufficient amount of intellectual currency to make my previous comments. Having performed more than one investigation on service members involving things like drug and arms smuggling, sex trafficing, etc., I believe I have a realistic view of the state of our military. What I don't possess are rose colored glasses that blind me to the state of things.

    If you want to claim that law enforcement has it's own share of shitbags who shouldn't be wearing a badge, all I could do is agree with you. You see, it's possible to engage in a profession with respect and honor while still acknowledging its faults.
    Last edited by Trooper224; 04-24-2018 at 02:06 PM.
    We may lose and we may win, but we will never be here again.......

  5. #15
    I separated 102 Marines last year as the Legal separations platoon Sgt here at School of Infantry East (Thank God I'm back over to ITB now...), for everything from Murder, Rape, child molestation, armed robbery, Drug trafficking, sexual assault, manslaughter, to the mundane, like popping on piss tests, shoplifting, larceny, DUI's, refusal to train, desertion and UA.... and this is just one waystation for part of the Marine Corps path to the fleet. I have quickly learned that there is nothing really that special about the Military in regards to the kind of trouble its people get into and who joins, it is a reflection of the society from which it is drawn and we will, for the most part have the same issues with our personnel as you see with non mil. I spent plenty of time talking with all of the local agencies around here along with CID, NCIS, and PMO in regards to my job separating these Marines and I was constantly amazed at the amount of shit that 17 to 24 years olds seem to get themselves involved in around here. All I'll say now is that it sometimes seems that boot camp is not the transforming process it used to be...... Are these significant numbers, well not really, but way more than many are prepared to believe.
    Last edited by rcbusmc24; 04-24-2018 at 03:50 PM. Reason: Grunt No spel gud

  6. #16
    Site Supporter Trooper224's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcbusmc24 View Post
    I separated 102 Marines last year as the Legal separations platoon Sgt here at School of Infantry East (Thank God I'm back over to ITB now...), for everything from Murder, Rape, child molestation, armed robbery, Drug trafficking, sexual assault, manslaughter, to the mundane, like popping on piss tests, shoplifting, larceny, DUI's, refusal to train, desertion and UA.... and this is just one waystation for part of the Marine Corps path to the fleet. I have quickly learned that there is nothing really that special about the Military in regards to the kind of trouble its people get into and who joins, it is a reflection of the society from which it is drawn and we will, for the most part have the same issues with our personnel as you see with non mil. I spent plenty of time talking with all of the local agencies around here along with CID, NCIS, and PMO in regards to my job separating these Marines and I was constantly amazed at the amount of shit that 17 to 24 years olds seem to get themselves involved in around here. All I'll say now is that it sometimes seems that boot camp is not the transforming process it used to be...... Are these significant numbers, well not really, but way more than many are prepared to believe.
    I remember when I separated from Uncle Sugar at the end of '91. My ship was heading out on deployment and I convinced my CO to leave me behind. I had a month left and had no desire to make it back to the States from the ass crack of the world. Reluctantly, he agreed. I remember watching the old girl head out and being filled with a sense of sadness I really hadn't expected. I'd packed a lot of life experience into the five years I spent on that ship, she was my home an those were my peeps, as dysfunctional as some of them were. I then checked into the TAD Company and wondered if I'd made a grave mistake, as I was the only one there who wasn't a shitbag facing a Big Chicken Dinner (that's what we used to call a Bad Conduct Discharge). I walked into the quarter deck and reported to a sailor who held the same rank as I did and I've never seen a more dejected and glum looking individual in my life. He obviously hated his life being in charge of the shitbag crew. I handed him my packet and his first question was, "What are you getting kicked out for?" I replied, "Nothing, I'm just getting out." He then looked up, noticed I still had chevrons on my sleeve and realized he was no longer alone in the detritus of Navy flotsam and jetsam. I then went down to personnel and they decided to discharge me in a week instead of a month. Huzzah! Needless to say, while everyone else in the company was painting buildings, picking up trash and cleaning toilets, I was drinking coffee in the office with my temporary BFF. I don't envy anyone who has that kind of duty.
    We may lose and we may win, but we will never be here again.......

  7. #17
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    I have tremendous respect for the FBI as an organization and the work done by the behavioral science unit. That said, I think they may have gone a bit astray in their interviews with bad guys committing serious assaults on LEO's as they did in the referenced "Violent Encounters: study.

    From reading the numerous books by "profilers" who started the behavioral science program, the serial murderers and sex offenders interviewed were somewhat curious as to why they were the way they were. While I doubt they were as badly treated in prison as TV cop shows portray, I doubt there are many bragging rights associated with rape, child molestation, and the murder of women and children.

    Would-be cop killers are a different breed. Bragging about how skilled and proficient they are is likely to attract the interest and attention of even skilled interviewers. Moreover, unlike statements by sex offenders and serial murders which can possibly be verified or disproven through investigative reports, claims of "training" and back-up weapons are likely impossible to verify and may contribute to bragging rights in gen pop. Moreover, even if the interviewees admit to lying to agents, there would be bragging rights for fooling the FBI.

  8. #18
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    What? You guys are telling me there is no honor among thieves?

    I'm very skeptical of self-reporting, especially from criminals. I find it hard to believe they "practiced" twice a month on average.

    I was focused on the military training aspect as it related to the OP's question. Military service could be verified and I hoped the FBI did so before reporting it. Since I couldn't find the actually study, I don't know if it was verified or just self-reported.

  9. #19
    Four String Fumbler Joe in PNG's Avatar
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    Noted cocaine smuggler Jon Roberts claimed to be a Vietnam vet, and a part of the Special Forces- and according to his Wiki page, the military has no record of his service.
    "You win 100% of the fights you avoid. If you're not there when it happens, you don't lose." - William Aprill
    "I've owned a guitar for 31 years and that sure hasn't made me a musician, let alone an expert. It's made me a guy who owns a guitar."- BBI

  10. #20
    Two things:
    First, in my area the rate of shitbirds and gang members in the military was enough that NCIS had a couple guys who were basically permanent fixtures with our gang unit in order to be experts at identifying all the graffiti, lace color meanings on boots, tattoos, and other b.s. they were dealing with regularly. The USMC and Navy had a huge presence in SoCal, and there was a lot of issues with gang and criminal stuff. May have changed a ton in the last ten years I have been retired, but I somehow doubt it. Not saying the military sucks.....on the contrary. It was an attractive place to send little turds who could get in for training and smuggling, and for many groups like Outlaw Motorcycle Gangs, a great place to recruit for those getting out. This leads to number two...

    Criminal culture. Unlike our current snowflake generation Why youth culture, the youth criminal culture loves guns, respects competency with weapons and martial and fighting skills. Technology advances have made training very accesable to them. There was always a level of respect for those gang members who could shoot and handle firearms well and who could fight Good amongst their group. Which is absolutely contrary to the police culture and the current culture of citizenry. I had FAR more crooks comment or recognize my gear, guns, and how I handled myself with firearms in a positive or respectful way than I ever did from my cop culture where I was considered a misfit.
    Just a Hairy Special Snowflake supply clerk with no field experience, shooting an Asymetric carbine as a Try Hard. Snarky and easily butt hurt. Favorite animal is the Cape Buffalo....likely indicative of a personality disorder.
    "If I had a grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton".

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