Criminals and firearms training

[Beat Trash]

This is a rare forum on the internet in that for the most part, it's made up of members of the gun culture who actually strive to better their skills by education, training and practice with their choice of weapon.

Training is good. Training builds skill, which in turn builds confidence. But one must be careful that this confidence does not turn into arrogance.

I think that it would be extremely dangerous to assume that a criminal is less of a threat because he does not train. When you are suddenly confronted with a critical incident, how do you know which category your opponent falls into, trained or untrained? Looking at the quality of the weapon or lack there of is not an accurate representation of one's level of training. Just like when you are standing on the firing line of your favorite gun range, the guy to your left may have the newest and greatest pistol, and be in the process of shooting himself in the foot. The guy on your right may have a used S&W SD pistol he just acquired, but he also has four combat tours under his belt and knows a bit about how and when to utilize appropriate tactics.

A private citizen who is a moral and law abiding member of society may hesitate to actually put rounds into another human being. A inter-city thug who's shot people for disrespecting him in the past and the offense has gone unreported will not hesitate to pull that trigger. That second of hesitation can often negate any training the good guy may have under their belt.

How many times over the years have we seen a suspect win due to pure luck. And how many times have we buried good men because a lack there of.

When I confront a suspect on the street, I assume that they are well trained, just to err on the side of caution. When I train, I tell myself that the person I am training to confront is myself.

[okie john]

This is a rare forum on the internet in that for the most part, it's made up of members of the gun culture who actually strive to better their skills by education, training and practice with their choice of weapon.

Training is good. Training builds skill, which in turn builds confidence. But one must be careful that this confidence does not turn into arrogance.

I think that it would be extremely dangerous to assume that a criminal is less of a threat because he does not train. When you are suddenly confronted with a critical incident, how do you know which category your opponent falls into, trained or untrained? Looking at the quality of the weapon or lack there of is not an accurate representation of one's level of training. Just like when you are standing on the firing line of your favorite gun range, the guy to your left may have the newest and greatest pistol, and be in the process of shooting himself in the foot. The guy on your right may have a used S&W SD pistol he just acquired, but he also has four combat tours under his belt and knows a bit about how and when to utilize appropriate tactics.

A private citizen who is a moral and law abiding member of society may hesitate to actually put rounds into another human being. A inter-city thug who's shot people for disrespecting him in the past and the offense has gone unreported will not hesitate to pull that trigger. That second of hesitation can often negate any training the good guy may have under their belt.

How many times over the years have we seen a suspect win due to pure luck. And how many times have we buried good men because a lack there of.

When I confront a suspect on the street, I assume that they are well trained, just to err on the side of caution. When I train, I tell myself that the person I am training to confront is myself.

Brilliant post.

Prepare to face a trained, determined, experienced, and lucky opponent. There's a description of a guy named Todd (not TLG) on the TPI forums that makes a pretty good template for a worst-case scenario.


Okie John

[Mark D]

Was he the guy that emphasized shoot and move as being one of the great predictors of successful gunfighting? I read an excellent article some time ago from one of the more active Chicago area officers emphasizing movement.

There are all flavors of criminals out there, dumb, smart, trained, untrained. I remember one nightshift briefing with a Western States BOLO about a group doing pharmacy burglaries with what was believed to be two layoff guys with scoped rifles. Shit got quiet for a moment in the rollcall room.

In his 2010 podcast with Mas Ayoob, Bob Stach doesn't discuss shooting and moving. But he does describe his strong preference for head shots and one handed shooting. In his 14 gunfights he only used a two-handed grip about three times.

[willie]

The juvenile justice system feeds its population into adult prison system. Kids who were mean and stupid become more mean and more stupid in adult prisons. When encountering a 25 year old street criminal, you may be interacting with a predator whose belief system with its sociopathic mindset has been maturing since age 12 or 13. This person will kill or maim without compunction. Drug addiction, mental illness, and low intelligence make him(or her)even more dangerous. His weapon brand and firearms training are low on the list of variables contributing to his danger. I used the term stupid. Yes, he may be stupid but is smart enough to read others. He would cross the street to avoid certain persons here because he could immediately interpret their demeanor. This post has no new information to many here. My point is that some criminals' willingness to harm others is a bigger concern than their choice of weapons or their training level.

[Eli]

A private citizen who is a moral and law abiding member of society may hesitate to actually put rounds into another human being. A inter-city thug who's shot people for disrespecting him in the past and the offense has gone unreported will not hesitate to pull that trigger. That second of hesitation can often negate any training the good guy may have under their belt.

I've had this conversation with quite a few people. We have kids not yet in their 20s that have been shot and stabbed multiple times, and shot and stabbed others multiple times...yet Joe Carrier automatically assumes he's going to be better at violence because he goes to the range a few times a year and he's carrying legally.

That's not how this works.

[Gewehr3]

Related: Varg Freeborn talks quite a bit about higher level criminals, and the differences between them and low-level crims, as well as everyday people. Varg has a unique perspective on this issue, having grown up in a violent criminal family, and then spending 5 years in prison.

In his book ("Violence of Mind") he states the real difference between higher-level violent criminals is their a) willingness to commit violence, and b) their high level of experience with violence. In his opinion, the most important elements to victory are mindset (what he calls orientation) and conditioning. Technique and formal training are much less important in his hierarchy.
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Is "Varg Freeborn" a nom de plume? Interesting name.

[Olim9]

Is "Varg Freeborn" a nom de plume? Interesting name.

I would say it's his real name.

[Mark D]

Is "Varg Freeborn" a nom de plume? Interesting name.

I've also wondered if that isn't nom de guerre. But it clearly isn't for anonymity - his shows his face on video and social media. And teaches classes in the Ohio and Florida area.

For those interested in an inside look at the culture of criminal violence, he has his own podcasts, and he's made frequent appearances on P&S. Although what he says will probably be old news for the seasoned LEOs here at PF. But it's a healthy reminder for those who fall into the trap of thinking "criminals are stupid."

[Olim9]

Although what he says will probably be old news for the seasoned LEOs here at PF. But it's a healthy reminder for those who fall into the trap of thinking "criminals are stupid."

He shows small portions of these interviews in his VoM seminars. Very interesting stuff.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewXXSQMtE7E&

https://youtu.be/34tv3umYUUA?t=2328

[jeep45238]

But it's a healthy reminder for those who fall into the trap of thinking "criminals are stupid."

I remember the first time I heard one of the podcasts he was on - really made me go "wow" and start to focus more on the psychology/awareness side of things. It blends really well with what Aprill has to say, coming from the other side of the fence, so to speak.