I'd recommend the followers of this thread listen to the recent episode of Ballistic Radio on which Mr. Massad Ayoob was the guest.
I'd recommend the followers of this thread listen to the recent episode of Ballistic Radio on which Mr. Massad Ayoob was the guest.
Not a whole lot about gun modifications, but still a good interview that addresses court hearings and juries. What Mas said about judges not allowing statements made to investigating officers after a defensive shooting to be heard in evidence because it is too beneficial to the person who acted in self defense is a little scary.Originally Posted by Bill
TL;dr all the pages of replies. I put G levers in every 92 I own except the one I carry. That one came from the factory as G Model.
This should scare you more than G lever/no G lever. Is this instructor a true expert (like Mas) or were his instructor creds enough? More than that, how do you know he testified and didn't just read Mas's articles on the matter?
Last edited by Hambo; 04-28-2018 at 05:49 PM.
"Gunfighting is a thinking man's game. So we might want to bring thinking back into it."-MDFA
Beware of my temper, and the dog that I've found...
While I wouldn't ask you to explain your experience with this publicly, I must respectfully disagree with your position.
What lots of people fail to understand is the "show me case law" argument is complete B.S. It makes a supposition and then demands proof in the negative to be disproven. Plus, there are many ways that cases resolve that doesn't involve the creation of caselaw at all. As it stands now, well over 95% of cases never make it to trial, they end in either a negotiated plea, and open plea, or dismissal. No caselaw is generated. Criminal cases that are never appealed also don't generate any caselaw. Moreover, case law varies widely state to state, jurisdiction to jurisdiction and even judge to judge (as Mr. Ayoob rightly points out in the Ballistic Radio piece). Case law, even if directly on point, isn't necessarily binding on any future case, regardless of if it "should" be or not. In the self defense community, we often like to use the phrase "its not the odds, its the stakes" in explaining our decision to commit so much time, energy and money to the pursuit of our self defense capabilities. It is my opinion that the same should apply to your equipment: The question is not, what are the odds that modifying your gun will be a dispositive issue in the courts should you ever need to use your weapon, its what are the stakes? Your freedom and everything you own could be at stake. So while, taking every advantage you can get in the way you set up your equipment is a totally valid exercise, being completely dismissive of conservative opinions on the issue may not be wise. Your "good shoot" isn't necessarily going to be self-evident to everyone involved, even if it appears so on its face. God knows there are plenty of other issue involved, and other interests that will tug at the strings of the powers that be. It may be a DA who is trying to make a name for him or herself, or other local politicians doing the same. It may be a civil plaintiff-"victim" who knows your insurance provider will only pay out if your shooting was accidental or negligent, and not intentional, and may accordingly take the position that you shot by accident, regardless of what your version of the story is, or however justified you feel the shooting was.
Consider for a moment that another gun owner, a less educated, less trained, and less responsible gun owner were to shoot someone you knew and claim it was self defense, or even just an accident. Would YOU take a hard look at their social media presence looking for aggression? Would you want to know if they performed some dremel trigger job on their Springfield Xd? Wouldn't that be relevant to you? Do you think the average juror or even DA knows the difference between an Overwatch Precision Glock trigger that maintains all factory safeties and someone who cuts coils off their springs to make a 2 lb trigger pull?
All just food for thought.
Let me respond to your first comment. Case law is never bullshit. Ever. It's actually what keeps people in NY and CA from prosecuting HR218 cases. Which is especially relevant to me because I am a MPI. Case law for shoots and particular self defense situations are very relevant. Additionally supreme court rulings are also, very important. Saying case law isn't important makes me question your source information or reference knowledge, respectfully though, I don't want that to sound like a personal attack.
While I definitely respect Massad Ayoob and would learn from him in a heartbeat. He is not the end all be all. He has a wealth of knowledge, has experience, and almost certainly knows more than I do. However, it comes down the lawyers, judge, and if applicable, the jury. I've seen a shitload of cases go the other way. I had a SLAM DUNK rape case, with 3 recorded phone confessions and a confession in writing go south because of the victims trying to kill themselves. The guy is still in the Navy. Still an MA at that, and got promoted to E6. I've been in and out of both military and federal court. I've seen people go down for the dumbest shit I've ever seen/heard, and predators/killers go free. There's advice sure, but it is not a definite cold hard grantee. Which you and many on here are treating as gospel. These cases were in both military courts and Federal courts before anyone tries to throw the "Military justice system is different" argument at me. I've also been called as a witness in civilian incidents which were outside of our jurisdiction.
Sure, polishing (especially with a dremel) can definitely land you in hot water. If you make the gun fully automatic. Or occasionally it burst fires because you change the sear engagement geometry. Any idiot that ruins their gun in such a way can face penalties and is responsible for them in my opinion. I'm still apprenticing under a real master gunsmith. I've got waaaaay more to learn, but we don't use dremels. It's stones or nothing. Cutting coils, or any of that other cheap stuff could land you in a similar situation. Sure. But this is all "Can" and "possibly" not "Definitely" unless you modify the action of the weapon by doing so, then that's a definitely. IE making a 1911 into a fully automatic pistol because you don't know what you're doing.
Secondly what I carry is what I carry. It changes based on my needs. But I know as an experienced shooter and someone who carries a gun every day, I have preferences. Off duty it's something with a 4-4.5lb trigger in SA. Be it my P30L or my VP9, or my G19 or my P30sk or my HK45 in Light LEM. I'll put whatever sights and trigger configurations I see fit to fire a well placed shot in a stressful situation. Again, no one has been able to answer me where you can legally only carry a certain weapon. The difference between a high end custom gun purchased as is, and the same gun stock or from a different manufacturer. Sure in MA you might be able to articulate there's a difference where there's required trigger poundage. But Texas or Florida, or any free state. No one can do that. Because it isn't a thing. If you play around with your guns fire control system, then we can discuss that. But once again, sights, changing from one factory configuration to another factory configuration, drop in parts, and other typical modifications are not risks. The lawyer can bring it up all day long, they'll either hit or objections will be filed and sustained. A lot of people treat bringing up the subject in the courtroom as something that's ALWAYS GOING TO HURT YOU. It's not.
My experience with this is plenty of times I've either made a clerical error on paperwork, or didn't follow a procedure to the letter because of a circumstance. The defense lawyer pressed me in court about my actions and I responded flatly and truthfully. Zero negative effects, I still have my creds. It happens. It's based on your responses.
Lot's of people go to Massad Ayoob, but there's a bunch of other people out there with other advice regarding weapons and modifications. I honestly don't touch the carry guns I have. I've never needed to. But I buy nice guns. You best believe if there was a trigger that made my P30's like my HK45's, they'd get dropped in and I would carry them everywhere. I'm not saying ignore Massad Ayoob , take all the advice you want from him. Just know there's others out there. Thunder ranch being one of them, which is also a respected training facility last time I checked. You'll get advice in multiple directions but at the end of the day, what it comes down to is, was it a good shoot, did you have a legal right to arm yourself, was the firearm purchased legally, and the circumstances of the shoot. The little things are there, but you have to take the stand and articulate them. Or not, and have a badass lawyer.
Deployment internet double tap
Last edited by navyman8903; 04-29-2018 at 04:37 AM. Reason: double tap
I haven't had issues explaining my actions in boards or on the stand. Maybe other people have. I also haven't had a case on the news so, I imagine something with national attention may be difficult. But I haven't been in that position.
Deployment internet again.....sorry.
Last edited by navyman8903; 04-29-2018 at 04:49 AM. Reason: double tap
To add to my earlier comments, ^^^ THIS.
I don't own a Dremel, and I don't believe I would be able to do the detailing and cleanup of manufacturing artifacts that I do with a Dremel. Felt wouldn't accomplish it, and spinning stones or burrs couldn't be controlled to do it. Plus, something that's spinning can't readily be used to create a flat surface without some mechanism to precisely control its motion, like a vertical mill, for example.
The trope that gets kicked around in discussions like this that the alternative to a person who has spent years in gunsmith school is a "There I fixed it" level hack simply doesn't reflect reality.
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Not another dime.
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