legit advice on modifications?

[navyman8903]

I'd disagree on a few things. One that the shooting itself is more stressful than the investigation that follows. LEOs often report the media attention and investigation are more stressful than the actual shooting. While everyone and each incident is different, that mirrors my recollection.

Also, the prosecutor is limited on what they can "grill" you on, as it must be relevant. Civil depositions, that's where things go off the rails.

I agree and disagree with you. I agree Civil dispositions do indeed go off into left field and frequently. Now as for the prosecutors are limited, yes they are, but it's also about what the court allows. What the judge allows. It isn't necessarily a set in stone thing. Yes they have boundaries. But I've heard those questions asked as well. Sometimes they get an objection, sometimes they do not. Sometimes it's sustained and sometimes it's overruled. There's not a set in stone COA. I will say, it's easy to get used to a particular Judge, and DA/prosecutor over time. But each Judge is a different animal, each proceeding is different based on that fact.

[navyman8903]

I don't think anyone posting is actually advocating carrying without a round in the chamber, the point was simply made that it could be the subject of a question in some jurisdictions.

And there has been at least one expert posting in this thread with real world experience with court cases in which gun modifications were a factor. Why discount that expertise? I think the point is if a person plans to modify a gun that will be used for defensive purposes, it might be smart to limit the modifications to things that don't remove safety features, make the trigger lighter than factory spec, etc... -- especially in places where a CIVIL CASE may/will be brought.

Two things I observed in your response, and I'm saying this respectfully. First where did you see I said making a trigger lighter than factory spec? Secondly you're inserting your own interpretations into the modification piece. It's a very broad area of conversation.

Also based on that fact you brought up about lighter triggers, what if two people are involved in a shooting in the same state use the same gun, made by different people? What if Person A used an Ed Brown 1911 with a 3.5LB trigger, and person B used a Ruger 1911 with a 5 or 6 lb trigger? I get that they're not modified, but one man just purchased an already customized gun. What's the difference between ordering an already customized gun, and putting in drop in parts, or say, changing my DA/SA HK45 from its original configuration to a Light LEM which is a factory configuration? The trigger is lighter. But I can also buy a light LEM. The parts all say HK on them. Same with dropping in G34 parts into a G17.


I'm not doubting their experience. I'm doubting the blanket application of that experience as there's no case law to back it up. There's a huge difference between the two. I'm positive a ruling in NY or CA is different than a ruling in TX or NH.

[Robinson]

Two things I observed in your response, and I'm saying this respectfully. First where did you see I said making a trigger lighter than factory spec? Secondly you're inserting your own interpretations into the modification piece. It's a very broad area of conversation.

I suppose I was responding to this line in your post:

I still have yet to hear anything that will get you snapped up in court for carrying a round in the chamber, changing factory configurations, adding aftermarket sights, and all of these basic things.

Modifying a trigger to be lighter than factory spec might fall under your broad term "changing factory configurations". But if you are saying you would make a distinction then we have nothing to argue about on that point.

Also based on that fact you brought up about lighter triggers, what if two people are involved in a shooting in the same state use the same gun, made by different people? What if Person A used an Ed Brown 1911 with a 3.5LB trigger, and person B used a Ruger 1911 with a 5 or 6 lb trigger? I get that they're not modified, but one man just purchased an already customized gun. What's the difference between ordering an already customized gun, and putting in drop in parts, or say, changing my DA/SA HK45 from its original configuration to a Light LEM which is a factory configuration? The trigger is lighter. But I can also buy a light LEM. The parts all say HK on them. Same with dropping in G34 parts into a G17.

Are you assuming the jury in a civil case will have the same knowledge of these things that you have, and will judge rationally? I think it's quite possible for a jury to become focused on "the shooter modified his trigger to make it easier to shoot people" or "the shooter screwed with the trigger and made the gun unsafe". Again, they probably won't be as educated on firearms as you are.

I'm positive a ruling in NY or CA is different than a ruling in TX or NH.

Yeah that's sort of the point.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Depends on the jury composition in TX or NH. Here is the Democratic candidate for senator in TX:

“There is no reason an AR-15, a weapon of war designed for the sole purpose of taking lives as effectively and as efficiently and [in] as great a number as possible should be sold to civilians to be used in our schools, in our churches, in our concerts, in public life in this country,” O’Rourke said. “I have no idea how that polls, and I could give a shit what the NRA thinks about it because it’s the right thing to do.”

He might win or get 45% of the vote. Wendy Davis got about 39% of the vote when running for governor. She waffled on gun control but was primarily anti.

So to use the overall state figures (locales could make it worse), 40% of the jury pool could be antigun in some manner in TX. I'm too lazy to figure out the probability of a majority antigun jury. It would have been a good question on one of my statistics exams.

[OlongJohnson]

NM...

[psalms144.1]

BLUF - y'all gotta do y'all. If you want to run a modified pistol on duty or for defensive purposes - knock yourselves out. But, if it turns around and bites you in the ass, it's not because a LOT of REALLY experienced people haven't advised you not to.

Carry on - I'll be in the area all day.

[navyman8903]

I suppose I was responding to this line in your post:

I still have yet to hear anything that will get you snapped up in court for carrying a round in the chamber, changing factory configurations, adding aftermarket sights, and all of these basic things.

Modifying a trigger to be lighter than factory spec might fall under your broad term "changing factory configurations". But if you are saying you would make a distinction then we have nothing to argue about on that point.



Are you assuming the jury in a civil case will have the same knowledge of these things that you have, and will judge rationally? I think it's quite possible for a jury to become focused on "the shooter modified his trigger to make it easier to shoot people" or "the shooter screwed with the trigger and made the gun unsafe". Again, they probably won't be as educated on firearms as you are.



Yeah that's sort of the point.

I see where your confusion is and I realize I am partially at fault, though I did site a few examples. Changing from one factory configuration to another is what I meant.

I also plan on the Jury being the most ignorant on a subject possible. Not stupid, but ignorant.

[LSP552]

I also plan on the Jury being the most ignorant on a subject possible. Not stupid, but ignorant.

I’ve seen some stupid juries in my time and I’d bet most LE can say the same thing. You can also NEVER predict what will happen when a matter goes to the jury. They can fixate on one issue and give it way more importance than it deserves. Again, suspect many of us have seen that more than once.

[BehindBlueI's]

I also plan on the Jury being the most ignorant on a subject possible. Not stupid, but ignorant.

Plan for both. A jury trial puts your fate in the hands of 12 people who couldn't figure out how to get out of jury duty.

[GardoneVT]

Depends on the jury composition in TX or NH. Here is the Democratic candidate for senator in TX:



He might win or get 45% of the vote. Wendy Davis got about 39% of the vote when running for governor. She waffled on gun control but was primarily anti.

So to use the overall state figures (locales could make it worse), 40% of the jury pool could be antigun in some manner in TX. I'm too lazy to figure out the probability of a majority antigun jury. It would have been a good question on one of my statistics exams.

It is interesting when a gun owner mods their pistol ,relies on the fact they live in a “red state”, and trusts that a jury pool will thus automatically understand the intricacies of a Glock trigger spring of things go to trial.

I currently live in a state solidly ranked “F” in gun safety according to the Brady website. My office is 4 hours away from a store where a shopper can literally buy alcohol, tobacco,firearms (and gasoline) from the same singular establishment. My coworkers in said office are analysts ,and thus not morons. Many of them own more guns then I do. Guess what- they don’t know the difference between a Glock trigger spring and a hole in the ground.

Which means when a prosecutor and/or civil attorney states a Glock pistol with a competition only trigger spring was negligently modified , they’ll believe it. Guess whose attorney now has to refute that statement?

Paying hundreds of dollars so 12 jurors can be taught Handgun Engineering 101 by an expert witness at your hearing is a generous thing,but it’s an act of charity I’m opting out of.