legit advice on modifications?

[Joe in PNG]

The truth is, that there have been a lot of defensive shootings since Zimmerman, including cross racial ones and most of them did not go to trial. There were some very specific elements in the Zimmerman that led it going to trial--the cross racial nature of it and the avoidability of the shooting--the fact that Zimmerman left the safety of his vehicle to go looking for someone who was otherwise not a direct threat to him or anyone else.

There's also the timing- just a few months before the 2012 election. It's the kind of event (racist white guy shoots black kid, and he's protected by racist laws*) that is good for getting people to turn out and vote.

*which is not what happened, but that's how it was portrayed.

[NH Shooter]

I measured the "smoothed up" trigger pull on my PPQ just now: it consistently holds just over 5 pounds of weight, but will not reliably hold 5 lbs. - 4 ounces. This is using a large Ziploc bag holding the weights with a zip tie looped through the bag and around the trigger.

The factory spec for the PPQ is stated as "around 5.6 pounds." Internet research indicates some variation in pull weight out of the box, and that some samples can drop to as low as 4.5 pounds after extended use.

It should be noted that before I buffed the trigger bar and applied grease to a few high-friction points, the pull on my sample was rough and uneven. There was one rough spot in the pull (where the trigger bar engages the firing pin safety plunger) that required quite a bit of force to overcome, certainly a lot more than 5.6 pounds if I did a slow pull.

My take away from all of this is that the trigger pull weight on the PPQ is significantly influenced by initial machining quality of the trigger bar, long term wear (smoothing of the rough spots) and lubrication. So once the trigger system parts are fully broken-in providing a nice, smooth pull, how does one deal with the resultant reduction in pull weight that appears inevitable with this trigger design?

The PPQ uses a trigger return spring that is easily replaced. One user researched aftermarket springs and found a few that are dimensional identical but slightly heavier, adding about 1/4 to one pound of weight to the pull. Using one of these replacement springs (not Walther parts) would bring the pull weight on my PPQ up to just over the factory spec. While I'm not uncomfortable with a long DA pull of around five pounds, considering how smooth the pull now is I don't believe getting it closer to six pounds would cause me any upset.

So would replacing the factory trigger return spring with a heavier aftermarket one to increase the pull weight pose a potential legal liability?

My layman's inclination is that it would not, especially considering I have already "modified the trigger" by buffing the rough spots on the trigger bar (instead of waiting for them to wear away from use). As Mas stated, the argument is never about "too smooth" but rather "too light" especially in combination with any trigger part that could be construed as user-modified.

[GardoneVT]

There were some very specific elements in the Zimmerman that led it going to trial--the cross racial nature of it and the avoidability of the shooting....

George Zimmerman is not Caucasian.

[Ed L]

George Zimmerman is not Caucasian.

True. But he was being described as a "white Hispanic" by some and it was being treated as a black vs. white issue by many.

[StraitR]

True. But he was being described as a "white Hispanic" by some and it was being treated as a black vs. white issue by many.

Zimmerman was being called "white" until it was made public that he was registered to vote in Florida as "Hispanic", at which point CNN coined him "white Hispanic" just to keep "white" in the story.

It goes to show how facts can be twisted to best fit pre-conceived ideas, agendas, or a narrative. Modifications, however simple and innocent they seem to gun owners, are subject to the same interpretation, vilification, and misrepresentation to achieve the desired affect, be that on public perception or a jury.

[Ed L]

Zimmerman was being called "white" until it was made public that he was registered to vote in Florida as "Hispanic", at which point CNN coined him "white Hispanic" just to keep "white" in the story.

It goes to show how facts can be twisted to best fit pre-conceived ideas, agendas, or a narrative. Modifications, however simple and innocent they seem to gun owners, are subject to the same interpretation, vilification, and misrepresentation to achieve the desired affect, be that on public perception or a jury.

Following that logic a regular person who has a carry permit or who takes training classes can be cast as someone looking for an excuse to kill someone. After all, no one needs a carry permit unless they are a terrorist or criminal target, like a District attorney, or they are involved in carrying large amounts of money that might make them a criminal target.

I remember reading Massad Ayoob's topic on Glock Talk where someone actually asked him replacing a worn recoil spring in a Glock would look bad in court. This is the absurd extreme that some people have taken this to.

Most legit defensive shootings don't even wind up in court unless there was something questionable or the shooter did something really stupid that led to a shooting that was otherwise avoidable (like leaving their car to search for someone like Zimmerman, or leaving the safety of their house to confront someone who otherwise wasn't a threat to them or anyone else).

Here is a link to a shooting that took place inside of New York City where the storeowner used a pistol gripped shotgun to shoot 4 robbers, only one of whom had a gun, killing two of the 4. The shooting was not even brought before a grand jury, nor was the shooter arrested for the shooting:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/14/nyregion/14shoot.html

Another category of encounters that often land people in court is shooting someone they know or had a long running beef with. This raises the question was the person who shot them was a participant in an argument that escalated or was it a legit case of self defense.

As already discussed, accidental discharges are another matter, and things that might make the gun more likely to discharge accidentally will be an issue.

And what specifically are we talking about with modifications? A trigger job that allows you to shoot the gun more accurately shoot that lots of people do? Different sights that are easier to see that make the gun more accurate to shoot or more suitable for defensive use? Having a gunsmith remove the groove in the inside bottom of the trigger guard of the HK P30 and HK45 that can sometimes painfully wack your trigger finger during recoil?

Bottom line is don't do anything to the gun that makes you stand out like a wierdo or unbalanced person or someone with an agenda--like duracoat the gun the colors of the confederate flag or have Nazi thunderbolts engraved on it.

On the other hand there have been burglars shot with war souvenir and collectable Lugars without ths homeowner being charged or being labelled a Nazi:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.1074925

[NH Shooter]

Most legit defensive shootings don't even wind up in court unless there was something questionable or the shooter did something really stupid that led to a shooting that was otherwise avoidable (like leaving their car to search for someone like Zimmerman, or leaving the safety of their house to confront someone who otherwise wasn't a threat to them or anyone else).


And what specifically are we talking about with modifications? A trigger job that allows you to shoot the gun more accurately shoot that lots of people do? Different sights that are easier to see that make the gun more accurate to shoot or more suitable for defensive use? Having a gunsmith remove the groove in the inside bottom of the trigger guard of the HK P30 and HK45 that can sometimes painfully wack your trigger finger during recoil?


Bottom line is don't do anything to the gun that makes you stand out like a wierdo or unbalanced person or someone with an agenda--like duracoat the gun the colors of the confederate flag or have Nazi thunderbolts engraved on it.

All really great points.

As responsible, conscientious people we tend to think in terms of worst case scenarios, which is certainly a good way to discuss the "what ifs" of armed self defense. While we can discuss the minutia to ridiculous detail (good to do, IMO), the minutia will only matter if you do something substantially stupid to start with. I believe discussions such as these further inoculate us from momentary lapses of good judgement as well.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

Please think of how long this thread has gone one.

Please think of how much debate has gone into determining what is custom, what is factory, if factory configuration swaps are okay & the like...

All on a well educated, pro-gun board.

Here’s my opinion:

Modified firearms aren’t the kiss of death as some people think they are, but you need to look at them in the context of the aftermath’s most important component:

“The Sale”

To whom are you selling the package?

You are selling it to:

Da Po-Po
Lawyers & Politicians
Media (somewhat)

Yes. You can use a modified firearm.
No. The scope of those modifications are no going to be as broad as you would like.

Do as little as possible to screw the sales pitch of yourself as the reasonable person.

There is a gradient of reasonable in modified firearms.

Things like factory configuration swaps in which a gunsmith used factory parts to turn a gun X(1) into a X(2), or the Glock 3.5/NY-1 combination are on one end over here with buying factory customized guns like Wilson Beretta things...

On the other end are people who remove firing pin safeties from Guns to get s better trigger...


Remember that convoluted explanations usually suck. If your explanations for your gun involve extreme detail & require advanced knowledge then it’s a tough sell.

[David S.]

In conclusion, I respectfully recommend (1) Trigger pull in keeping with the gun manufacturer's minimum or greater duty spec;

Because of this thread, I asked Beretta Customer Support about the PX4 Storm. They don't have a trigger weight spec for their guns, "Duty" or otherwise. Ernest Langdon and a couple other folks with extensive PX4 experience also report that there is no such thing. Unlike Glock, for instance, Beretta doesn't even advertise trigger weights on their website. The best I can find with a quick google search is reported weights from gun reviews.

What does "manufacturer's minimum duty spec" mean? Where would one find such information? How would one apply this recommendation if the spec doesn't exist?

Respectfully,
David S.

[Mas]

I'm surprised to hear that, David. They usually cover that in the factory armorer's school. Alas, I have never been to Beretta armorer's school.