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Thread: Shooting on the run ... why? when?

  1. #1
    Site Supporter Erick Gelhaus's Avatar
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    Shooting on the run ... why? when?

    https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....the-run-sprint

    Since Mr_White was addressing the mechanics in the original thread, linked above, I'll ask here ... Why would you choose to shoot on the run? I'm asking in a domestic police work, decent normal human being defensive situation. When & why would you shoot on the run?

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    Given enough training, I imagine some might be able to shoot accurately on the run. That said, I doubt most will achieve that skill, especially those whose training is at the standard patrol or even SWAT level.

    I would personally not attempt to shoot while running. While I believe shooting while moving is a necessary skill, a walk is the best most will achieve while delivering accurate hits. Indeed, in most cases, moving to cover quickly and then firing is the better option.

  3. #3
    Totally dependent on shooters skill set.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1slow View Post
    Totally dependent on shooters skill set.
    That's what should happen. Regardless of skill levels, if an officer decides that running and shooting is the immediate solution the problem, that's what he's going to do. The skill set will influence the hit to miss ratio and the ultimate outcome. In a perfect world, it's something everyone should train.

    I'm in the run and then shoot camp, since running and shooting outside of controlled environment had a very high risk of tripping. Look at how many cops trip and get injured in foot pursuits, and that's without a gun completely blocking the lower half of the field of vision.

    Closing in on a better armed/armored opponent is probably best done with running and shooting. Breaking away from suspect in a gunfight that starts at contact distance, i.e. arrest situations, is best done as quickly as possible. Human shield/hostage rescues. Situations where running and shooting is the least bad option available.
    Last edited by txdpd; 04-22-2018 at 01:09 PM.
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    Site Supporter Hambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angus McFee View Post
    When & why would you shoot on the run?
    Never.

    Quote Originally Posted by txdpd View Post
    In a perfect world, it's something everyone should train.
    I think there are about a million more useful things to spend limited training time on.

    Quote Originally Posted by txdpd View Post
    Human shield/hostage rescues.
    Whoa, that's a terrible idea.
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Hambo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Angus McFee View Post
    When & why would you shoot on the run?
    Never.
    While I am hesitant to engage in absolutes, especially when a triple scotch into unwinding from a truly crappy graveyard shift, the only examples I can come up with put me back in my soldier suit, and having just entered my sixth decade, that ain't likely to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hambo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by txdpd View Post
    In a perfect world, it's something everyone should train.
    I think there are about a million more useful things to spend limited training time on.
    In a perfect world, this would just be an exercise in an impractical application of physics. IOW, I concur with Hambo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hambo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by txdpd View Post
    Human shield/hostage rescues.
    Whoa, that's a terrible idea.
    Not being a FAM, or HRT, DevGru, or MI6/SAS operator, I agree. Again.
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  7. #7
    Leopard Printer Mr_White's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angus McFee View Post
    https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....the-run-sprint

    Since Mr_White was addressing the mechanics in the original thread, linked above, I'll ask here ... Why would you choose to shoot on the run? I'm asking in a domestic police work, decent normal human being defensive situation. When & why would you shoot on the run?
    Apologies if this is out of order in the LE forum. I'd really like to address the question, but I'll do it generically for the 'decent human being in a defensive situation', not specific to LE which I obviously am not. But I think there is plenty of commonality there.

    A couple examples -

    Example 1: There is a place we want to be, we're going there pretty fast, and at some point before we get there the shooting becomes practical under the circumstances, but we also want to keep moving. Say the shot trajectory from present location is unsafe to bystanders in/near foreground or background. While moving to improve the shot trajectory, there is a point where it becomes a practical shot, but continuing to move even further improves the trajectory. Once sufficiency is achieved, the shooting can start while continuing to move and thus further improve trajectory and safety to bystanders.

    Example 2: When recognition is made of a deadly threat and the need to shoot, we also recognize that we have a large initiative deficit under the present conditions. Explosive movement can buy the time to get the gun out and hits on and take effect and the continued movement helps keep his attack from connecting. Say it's us, him, a brick wall behind him, and he's got a gun pointed at us, 3-7 yards away. Go.

    We could come up with other examples too.

    I would readily agree that shooting on the run is realistically not at a sprint. A gentle run is doable. It is not an all-the-time technique and has narrow application imho, but various places for it do exist.

    There has to be foreknowledge of an avenue of movement of a useable length, whether very specific, or more general and requiring a quick look in the direction of travel to plot a course as the movement is started, then eyes back on threat to continue evaluating and shooting. There is limited opportunity to land hits while on the run. The difficulty increases dramatically as distance is significantly extended and an extreme angle to the threat is reached. When those factors emerge, it is probably time to stop and just shoot, or forego the shooting and just keep moving, even if shooting on the run was a realistic option just a moment before.

    It's critical that the shot difficulty and consequences for missing support doing the shooting in a relatively high state of motion.

    It is also important that the worst of both worlds not be the product. The movement needs to be aggressive enough to provide temporary security, and not defeat the more permanent security intended to be achieved with the shooting, which has to remain good enough.

    If the spatial circumstances and shooter support it, it is hard for me to think of a stronger immediate action response to initiative deficit against a deadly threat outside contact distance, than abruptly breaking into a run and landing a head shot.

    Move - stop - shoot is a classically excellent pattern and is the mainstay. There are little places to shoot on the run, circumstance and shooter-dependent.

    To me, the reasons to shoot on the run are largely the same as the reasons to shoot on the walk. It just requires that much more skill from the shooter in exchange for more security from the increased movement speed.
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  8. #8
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    I've seen enough dashcam/bodycam footage of OISes to be reasonably assured that being able to shoot on the move at a moving target, is a skillset you want to have. The more confident you are in being able to shoot while moving as fast as possible, the better off you are, in my opinion. Fundamental skills that work at high speed don't suddenly stop working at low speed or while stationary...

    I guess I think of it like the standards of accuracy we want to strive for. On the range we want 100% accuracy at as close to 100% speed as possible. So that when the bad stuff happens, we can be reasonably assured to hit 80-90% at 110% speed. Shooting on the move is multi-variable equation and requires practice to solve it efficiently. Barring inadequate space to work, why not practice shooting on the walk/trot/jog/run?

    By the by, I guess this is where I feel laser/airsoft training gains real value. That is being able to do dynamic training exercises like this in a controlled environment.

  9. #9
    There is a time to shoot;
    a time to move;
    a time to move then shoot;
    a time to shoot then move;
    a time to shoot while moving;
    and a time to haul ass.

    Skillset and the situation will be the determining factors. But shooting on a flat out run would be a very unlikely (not impossible) scenario. Shooting while on the run often detracts from the primary reason for running.

  10. #10
    Member JHC's Avatar
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    The first one that came to mind; shooting when really hauling ass was a variation of Gabe's #1. If one was totally exposed and hauling ass to a covered position - then because of multiple BGs or the orginal one or more BG's movement - a BG appeared, occupying where I was about to arrive at, I think the adaptive problem solving could involve firing in the full charge vs posting out in the open. Especially so if now the range was very close.

    As Surf's post indicates, it all depends. It's not as easy as a pre-programmed menu. It's problem solving of unique one off scenarios.
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