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Thread: Universal Basic Income (California...of course...)

  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by blues View Post
    I know someone mentioned the Finnish project earlier in the thread and I just happened upon this article in USA Today...
    Where does the $$ come from? Wealth transfer.
    Who gets to decide? Bureaucrats, pandering to the electorate.

    Recipe for:
    A. Success
    B: Failure
    C: Socialism (aka Never Worked, Anywhere, Ever)

    When you try stuff like this with 100 or 1,000 people, you don't see the same marketplace disruption that would occur when you roll this out universally. We have lots of good examples of what happens to the marketplace when the government gives away "free" stuff (see my earlier post). The news likes to call some of them "Bubbles".

    Also.... The fact that folks like me want to see government get out of the charity business does not mean that I'm "blaming" people for being <name your reason>... That's just BS. The same kind of shouting-down and name-calling and whatever-baiting that the left does when they meet someone who disagrees with them.

    Reality.... There are MANY types and causes of poverty. From unfortunate circumstances (illness, catastrophe) to generations-long cycles of hopelessness or bad decisions passed on from parent to child. My parents, fortunately for me, took a long-term view of their situation. I ate a lot of offal (some of it still on my menu... Chicken Frickazee made with stomachs and hearts, not breasts... Pitcha... mmm) and wore "skips" until the soles were gone). My immigrant grandparents arrived penniless, my parents did better and I'm working had every day to make sure my kids understand that history and value what sacrifices were made for them. My kids have each spent hundreds of hours volunteering.

    When you're hungry and jobless and living in whatever bad situation, you are rarely without choices, however. Some of those are hard choices. Some of them require help from others. Poverty in America is a place, not a caste. Every situation is different, which is why a government-run bureaucracy is incapable of providing a long term solution, beyond handouts and staving off catastrophe. Government will never be a way for the masses below the poverty line to rise up. In many ways, government can be an impediment and a disincentive.

    There are many people incapable of rising out of their situation without help. We have some excellent local charities that help people who don't know how, or are unable, to help themselves. Other charities get involved with folks who need a hand up. Job-seeking advice, workplace clothing, a safe place to live to escape a bad domestic situation. Other organizations provide help for people with physical and behavioral disabilities. IMO, the solution for poverty is LOCAL. Government helped create much of the current locked-in problem of generational poverty, and only government can bring the rules, incentives and funding to unwind things. But the direction needs to be LESS givernment (intentional misspelling), not more. Transferring wealth from earners to non-earners in the name of equality, or decency or whatever cover name you want to give it is simply putting a mask on Socialism. You'll never change peoples hearts and minds about getting personally, individually, locally involved in solving poverty and valuing the people affected by poverty through government mandate or by sticking the forceful hand of government in their pockets to transfer wealth to people under the false flag of progressivist "decency". I'd wager that the vast majority of Americans would help a neighbor in need. But if you want people to keep giving, they'll want to see that neighbor using that help in a way that the giver believes makes it worth giving.
    "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." - Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Constitution, Draft 1, 1776

  2. #162
    banana republican blues's Avatar
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    It's kinda like when you give a gift of something you thought the person really wanted but couldn't afford to buy themselves...and then they turn around and sell it to buy dope.

    Kinda makes you second guess your good intention.

    I know when I'd get hit up on the way to my old watering hole by the street hustlers in Miami, I'd tell 'em I'd buy 'em dinner but wouldn't give them the money so they could buy more booze or drugs.

    I'd walk 'em over to the Nicaraguan restaurant across the street and let them buy anything they wanted off the menu and give the money directly to the owner.

    Different situations, obviously, but same feeling of frustration when your good deed doesn't accomplish what you had hoped.
    There's nothing civil about this war.

  3. #163
    I can't help but think that universal/guaranteed basic/minimum income schemes are an attempt to make a rope longer by cutting a foot of one end, and tying it on the other.
    Recovering Gun Store Commando. My Blog: The Clue Meter
    “It doesn’t matter what the problem is, the solution is always for us to give the government more money and power, while we eat less meat.”
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  4. #164
    Four String Fumbler Joe in PNG's Avatar
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    In missions, there is a history of expat missionaries starting various aid projects to help their parish. The expat would have an idea of how the locals could make money, and would then finance and train the locals. Inevitably, the locals would just abandon the project- broken machinery wouldn't be repaired, fields would be allowed to go bush, ect.
    And the reason why is because that project wasn't organic to the people it was supposed to benefit. It wasn't their idea, they had no real interest in it, it often brought disruption to their usual routines, and since the expat was financing things, they had no investment in success or failure, no personal stake in the game.

    On a larger scale, the infrastructure in many 3rd world countries is financed and built by foreign aid and foreign contractors from various foreign nations. And once built, it's allowed to fall apart and rot away- why spend all that nice, easily skimmable money on maintenance when you can keep it for yourself? And, if things go bad enough, some other country will come along and build you a new one anyway.

    Humans don't do well in welfare type situations. Instead of using it as a step up to get going on their own, they tend to see it as an entitlement, and do even less.
    "You win 100% of the fights you avoid. If you're not there when it happens, you don't lose." - William Aprill
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  5. #165
    Site Supporter JohnO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe in PNG View Post

    Humans don't do well in welfare type situations. Instead of using it as a step up to get going on their own, they tend to see it as an entitlement, and do even less.
    There is a long and storied history of Socialism failing. Notably as far back in American history as Plymouth Plantation. https://mises.org/library/great-thanksgiving-hoax-1

  6. #166
    Site Supporter OlongJohnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe in PNG View Post
    In missions, there is a history of expat missionaries starting various aid projects to help their parish. The expat would have an idea of how the locals could make money, and would then finance and train the locals. Inevitably, the locals would just abandon the project- broken machinery wouldn't be repaired, fields would be allowed to go bush, ect.
    And the reason why is because that project wasn't organic to the people it was supposed to benefit. It wasn't their idea, they had no real interest in it, it often brought disruption to their usual routines, and since the expat was financing things, they had no investment in success or failure, no personal stake in the game.
    Somewhere, there's an interview with someone who makes the point that Peace Corps projects (thanks, John) have approximately 100 percent failure rate, for all these reasons.

    Similar in Africa after the European colonists pulled out. Productive farming operations that were simply abandoned intact to local operation with no strings attached became unproductive and turned to waste within a few years.
    .
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    Not another dime.

  7. #167
    Site Supporter JohnO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OlongJohnson View Post
    Somewhere, there's an interview with someone who makes the point that Peace Corps projects (thanks, John) have approximately 100 percent failure rate, for all these reasons.

    Similar in Africa after the European colonists pulled out. Productive farming operations that were simply abandoned intact to local operation with no strings attached became unproductive and turned to waste within a few years.
    When my wife was in college she went with a church group to Appalachia to do volunteer work. She refused to ever go back. She wondered why her group was there with all the able bodied men sitting on their collective asses watching the college kids work. Moral of the story; if someone or a group of people is not willing to help themselves then no amount of outside help will ever fix the problem or amount to any lasting solution.
    Last edited by JohnO; 04-25-2018 at 08:29 PM.

  8. #168
    It's interesting that you mention it was a church group...they should have read their own book, "if a man will not work, neither let him eat."

    It's just too bad our churches have abandoned tough love.

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  9. #169
    I have no idea whether UBI would work or not. I do know, however, that the arguments will be fantastic political theater and I'm looking forward to the fistfights. For the first time in my memory good conservatives will be lined up with the welfare establishment in demanding to keep the status quo ante. The welfare establishment will want to keep it to protect their jobs, e.g., those who decide if someone is eligible, those who write the checks, those who inspect and counsel the recipients, etc., most of which jobs will be lost if UBI truly becomes universal. The Democrats will parody Republicans for insisting we keep government big instead of shrinking it. Lots of laughs, all around.

  10. #170
    Site Supporter Sensei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaywalker View Post
    I have no idea whether UBI would work or not. I do know, however, that the arguments will be fantastic political theater and I'm looking forward to the fistfights. For the first time in my memory good conservatives will be lined up with the welfare establishment in demanding to keep the status quo ante. The welfare establishment will want to keep it to protect their jobs, e.g., those who decide if someone is eligible, those who write the checks, those who inspect and counsel the recipients, etc., most of which jobs will be lost if UBI truly becomes universal. The Democrats will parody Republicans for insisting we keep government big instead of shrinking it. Lots of laughs, all around.
    You seem to be confusing conservatives with Republicans or your average Trump voter. The "good conservatives" that you reference will be advocating for a limited federal government that extricates itself from the vast majority of social welfare programs (including Medicaid, public housing, nutrition assistance, etc.) - just like we have been doing since, well, around the time of Goldwater. Why? Because the last time I checked there was no Constitutional authority for federal subsidized housing or medical care; that is the job of your state and municipality if the voters choose.

    Republicans and your average Trump voter will be demanding to keep the status quo. Conservative and classic libertarians want nothing of that discussion.
    Last edited by Sensei; 04-26-2018 at 09:12 PM.
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