Kit setup: Light and fast or heavy and steady?

[Duces Tecum]

. . . it's the evasion/movement is life principle.

Evasion / movement to where?

I would speculate that question might bear on what you carry. If you have no safe place, no place to resupply, no way to replenish the eventually empty supply room, no friends that can take third watch, no way to secure the safe house in your absence, it really doesn't matter what you carry. Somebody else will be carrying it real soon.

[navyman8903]

So let me clarify a few things, because it seems we're going down a few roads we don't need to. I'm also not being a dick, or trying to measure things here. Completely flat tone and delivery without malice.

I've been a military LE reaction force team leader since 2007, I've got advanced active shooter training, DM training, and a few other things. I'm not a badass for sure, I can definitely learn and improve. But my position isn't one of ignorance either. I also don't miss wearing my plate carrier or helmet ever lol. Especially for the 12 to 14 hour days we work. So I get that perspective believe me. I've got about 8 more years of it till I punch the retirement clock and look for another job probably doing the same thing maybe.....I'm just looking for pointers on gear because I'm bored. Also while I can capture/retake a building....or clear one with a team, doesn't mean I know everything there is to know, and open world stuff is something I need to brush up on for myself/with my wife, since we're used to working with a team of 6 or 12. It'll most likely just be two of us. And yes I have places to go with similar minded/trained friends. I have also never met a crew of people who sleep in the same house ready for everything and are ready to go like 13 hours.

Yes, it is damn near 100% I'll never have to employ it off duty even in a situation like a natural disaster like Katrina or a riot. I'm also not going to go full moto if that happens. But I do want a solid setup for that if I ever needed it for that one day. Just looking for balance, I don't want to be under loaded and assed out, but I also don't want to be overloaded and dead.

I do appreciate the feedback about layering and keeping a low profile. I appreciate that perspective and agree with it. I honestly don't have a low profile rig so that's something I have to look into. I also like the perspective of what you can do per magazine. That was excellent feedback. Again, I'm not a fantasy fanatic at all. I just don't like being caught unaware or with my pants down unprepared. Especially in a skill set I'm pretty good at. So I'm just looking for some feed back on a kit.

Low profile rig suggestions would be awesome if anyone is willing to offer any feedback with something they've been successful with or know runs well.

[navyman8903]

Chances are the most likely reason you would ever need this stuff would also warrant that it be concealed.

Given that, and the fact that you don't apparently have a clear view of why you need it or how it would be employed (if you did, you'd know your own answers here), I think keeping it light and layering is a smart idea. 1 rifle mag on the belt, 4-8 on a chest rig, and a random number (however many that doesn't interfere with carrying other gear) in your go-bag. Use a Velcro inner/outer belt instead of a very high profile battle belt, and the blue force gear ten-speed elastic ammo placards are fantastic for the bag, as they're very lightweight, stay out of the way when something isn't in them, and also fit a variety of things (multi-tools, GPS, radios, batteries, mags, lights, medical gear etc).

Like clothing, layering allows you to adjust on the fly to what you need.....whether it be a natural disaster mandating you relocate for a short period, a long period, complete collapse of government, or riots where you want to get out of town without attracting too much attention but also want stuff on you incase the situation goes sideways. If all you have is some coyote brown high-profile fantasy bullshit, you're going to feel like a huge idiot when something bad actually does happen (likely a natural disaster where there is increased crime but still rule of law) and you can't actually equip yourself for any increased threat because you're not in Iraq.

That's solid feedback thank you. I tend to have a bag setup, but I'll look into those blue force gear ten-speed play cards. I'm definitely not on the "ooooo I hope this happens to me and I get to be like that one dude in the movies!" type guy. I'd rather get from point A to point B without issue. I have to do more research into low profile stuff. Pretty much all I have is the very overt stuff outside of my concealed carry rig for my pistol. Something I could hide under a hoodie or coat would be solid.

[navyman8903]

Mission drives equipment. What are we trying to accomplish? For starters take a look at Tamara's article in Recoil...http://www.recoilweb.com/oh-spare-me...ad-132740.html. It is really geared toward CCW and EDC but my quote early in that article is applicable here.....if you empty a 30 rd center fire rifle mag in civilian world USA you're gonna be on the news...if you empty TWO you're gonna be in the encyclopedia.

Look at it this way....4 AR mags loaded with 28 rounds each would allow you to engage 4 people with 28 rounds each....or 28 people...with 4 rounds each....or allows you to engage 14 people with 8 rounds each..... plus whatever pistol mags you have. Doing the math often changes the perspective.

Is that something you REALLY expect to need to do? I'm not saying that CAN'T happen I'm simply saying you should be asking if that is likely in your particular situation. You can roll with 3 mags on your plate carrier and 2 in the gun with a mag coupler and now have 28 x 5 (28 people 5 rounds each or 14 people 10 rounds each) plus whatever pistol mags and probably have far more ammo than you will ever shoot barring the straight up end of civilization and end of the world as we know it scenarios. To be honest, a 20 rd mag in your rifle is unlikely to get emptied so 4 or 5 30rd mags will probably be fine for everything short of global collapse.

At home for HD I generally roll with the rifle loaded with a 30 or 40 round mag. If I have to deal with the extremely unlikely late night home invasion I'm probably gonna only have time to grab the gun the soft armor and hopefully my shoes and get to cover. And a reload is really unlikely to be needed if I have that many rounds on tap to begin with....and besides ...people hit with rifle rounds tend to stop doing bad things without having to be told very many times. So 30 to 40 is probably about 25 to 35 more than I'd ever need.

Now I generally travel a little heavier since all I will have until I get home is probably what I will have brought with me. My current typical travel setup is rifle (Steyr AUG) and five 28 rd mags (4 in a shoulder bag 1 in the gun ) , pistol and 3 spare mags (2 on me and one spare in the shoulder bag) which gives me generally 140 total rounds of 5.56 and 68 total rounds of 9mm. That is not because I think I'm going to need all that in any particular 5 minute firefight...it is because while I'm out of town something could happen (earthquake, hurricane, civil unrest,terror event, Indian uprising , pestilence, etc) that makes return travel home difficult and I prefer not to be ONLY armed with a pistol if things are "open ended" and I might be living on the road for a few days. So that IS essentially my "end of world" load out in case it happens when I'm away from home. Remember the story about Walt Rauch and the group of famous gun writers trapped at Thunder Ranch the week of 9/11 when air travel was halted and they all to a man were carrying J frames and 1 reload or a SW 3913 and 1 spare mag only? They all had to get rental cars and drive hundreds of miles back home with just their tiny "comfortable to carry sucks balls to fight with" pistols and a handful of spare rounds each. That same week my wife and I were on our honeymoon with 2 pistols, 3 mags for each and an AR with 6 mags. Guess who was not panicking about needing ammo..... but again...that is 5 or 6 rifle mags not 15 or 16.

You can certainly roll like an SF team doing LRRP with 14 mags on you if you want, but you also sacrifice mobility and any look of "normalcy". A slick plate carrier under a pullover and a shoulder bag for your mags will be "overlooked" by many. Or that plate carrier with 3 mags ONLY can be "hidden" under a big jacket . I just can't see very many scenarios where other people seeing your plate carrier would be better than them not seeing it. Stealth is your friend as much or more than armor is if you don't HAVE to confront people. And hitting what you shoot at goes a long way toward mitigating the need for a lot of extra ammo.

Edited to ad..... TGS hit a lot of the same points about stealth while I was still typing out my lengthy post. And edited to "revise and extend" the original remarks.

That's solid feedback also, thanks. My scenarios are the same as yours honestly. I'm mostly worried about natural disasters, riots, graduated civil unrest and similar situations which do indeed require stealth. I don't want to be caught in a situation where I'm only packing the pistol and spare mag I have on me, but like that article said, I don't want to be on the News either. Any use of deadly force at all will be absolute last resort as per usual. I also don't have a full team, so overt presence will not benefit me hahaha. But I do want some stuff handy because of the areas I would have to transit to get back to Texas or up North if I had to. I'm currently stationed in FL and live in not the best part of Jacksonville. So I'm not worried so much about displaying what I've got, more so mitigating possible threats along the way and pushing where I've got to go back into friendly Texas during the above situations. I should have stated that, but not knowing the responses I was going to get ahead of time, I wasn't sure if I was going the TL;DR route.

The low profile rig has my attention. All I knew how to do is overt setups, even in CID (Navy CID, so MPI for those wondering), I did warrants and overt grabs. Not anything super covert.

[Randy Harris]

So let me clarify a few things, because it seems we're going down a few roads we don't need to. I'm also not being a dick, or trying to measure things here. Completely flat tone and delivery without malice.

I've been a military LE reaction force team leader since 2007, I've got advanced active shooter training, DM training, and a few other things. I'm not a badass for sure, I can definitely learn and improve. But my position isn't one of ignorance either. I also don't miss wearing my plate carrier or helmet ever lol. Especially for the 12 to 14 hour days we work. So I get that perspective believe me. I've got about 8 more years of it till I punch the retirement clock and look for another job probably doing the same thing maybe.....I'm just looking for pointers on gear because I'm bored. Also while I can capture/retake a building....or clear one with a team, doesn't mean I know everything there is to know, and open world stuff is something I need to brush up on for myself/with my wife, since we're used to working with a team of 6 or 12. It'll most likely just be two of us. And yes I have places to go with similar minded/trained friends. I have also never met a crew of people who sleep in the same house ready for everything and are ready to go like 13 hours.

Yes, it is damn near 100% I'll never have to employ it off duty even in a situation like a natural disaster like Katrina or a riot. I'm also not going to go full moto if that happens. But I do want a solid setup for that if I ever needed it for that one day. Just looking for balance, I don't want to be under loaded and assed out, but I also don't want to be overloaded and dead.

I do appreciate the feedback about layering and keeping a low profile. I appreciate that perspective and agree with it. I honestly don't have a low profile rig so that's something I have to look into. I also like the perspective of what you can do per magazine. That was excellent feedback. Again, I'm not a fantasy fanatic at all. I just don't like being caught unaware or with my pants down unprepared. Especially in a skill set I'm pretty good at. So I'm just looking for some feed back on a kit.

Low profile rig suggestions would be awesome if anyone is willing to offer any feedback with something they've been successful with or know runs well.

Just an off the cuff suggestion, the SKD TAC Pig Brig (https://www.skdtac.com/PIG-Brig-Plat...-p/pig.401.htm) can be either run slick under a pullover or jacket or run with pouches and is still pretty unobtrusive (as long as you stick with 3 mags not 6 or more). Couple that with a bag like the sneaky bag (https://sneakybags.com/collections/m...lity-bag-small) and you can carry mags and still be hard armored without standing out like an extra in "13 Hours" .

Now the rifle itself is going to be a bit of a give away that you are armed, but the point is just simply who draws more attention? The dude in the jacket with a rifle slung over his shoulder or the dude in the plate carrier with the rifle? And something like this (https://sneakybags.com/collections/f...cal-rifle-case) can go a long way toward making the rifle less obvious as you move through the world. But obviously, once the rifle comes out then the truly stealthy thing is somewhat limited.

[navyman8903]

Just an off the cuff suggestion, the SKD TAC Pig Brig (https://www.skdtac.com/PIG-Brig-Plat...-p/pig.401.htm) can be either run slick under a pullover or jacket or run with pouches and is still pretty unobtrusive (as long as you stick with 3 mags not 6 or more). Couple that with a bag like the sneaky bag (https://sneakybags.com/collections/m...lity-bag-small) and you can carry mags and still be hard armored without standing out like an extra in "13 Hours" .

Now the rifle itself is going to be a bit of a give away that you are armed, but the point is just simply who draws more attention? The dude in the jacket with a rifle slung over his shoulder or the dude in the plate carrier with the rifle? And something like this (https://sneakybags.com/collections/f...cal-rifle-case) can go a long way toward making the rifle less obvious as you move through the world. But obviously, once the rifle comes out then the truly stealthy thing is somewhat limited.

Thanks for the suggestions I'll check them out. I appreciate it.

[Randy Harris]

With regards to low profile plate carrier......http://edpoint.tumblr.com/post/13729...r-the-need-for

The pic in that link shows a plate carrier of unknown origin under a t-shirt and would not be obviously visible from a distance. Just something to ponder....

[psalms144.1]

I'll take light and fast ANY day that I'm not doing a planned, high risk operation. My agency currently doesn't issue rifle-rated armor, so I've got my issued vest in a concealed carrier and a BFG Plate Minus with plates and a single triple "10 Speed" M4 magazine pouch on the front. Pistol mags are on my belt already - if there's an active shooter in my building, I'll have four M4 mags to work through before transitioning to pistol - so I'd hope three magazines is sufficient. I've got a low speed home made trauma kit in an admin pouch as well, but we have "tossable" trauma kits prepositioned in several places throughout the building.

If I'm at home or away from the office, it's just what I've got on me, which is pretty limited...

[Chuck Haggard]

Paul Howe say what?

"As for combat loads, look at how much ammo and how many weapons you are
carrying. I have watched folks carry 12-20 magazines on their body and in my
opinion, it is too much. You cannot effectively maneuver with that weight nor
sustain any aggressive operation tempo for any length of time. Generally 4-5
magazines in an LE environment is more than adequate for any situation.
Let’s do the math on this one. If you critically hit a bad guy with one out of three
rounds you fire, that is 10 people per magazine (30 rounder). Carry five magazines
and we are looking at 50 people you have critically injured. Multiply that times five
officers on a tactical team and you have 250 folks you have neutralized. I think you
get my point. If the situation becomes so critical that you need more ammo, you will
have plenty of dead and wounded on your side who will not need theirs. If it makes
you feel better, keep a few extra magazines in the trunk of your car. "

http://www.combatshootingandtactics....real_fight.pdf

[Dagga Boy]

I am a HUGE fan of SneakyBags stuff for most of these scenarios.