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Thread: American P210

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by OlongJohnson View Post
    I have no experience with IndoMIM, but I have some with sourcing offshore components. It's within the realm of possibility that, when parts are made in the same factory by the same people with the same operational culture and default quality procedure integrity level, a "higher quality" variant parts stream is really just more expensive and no less likely to contain defects.

    A thought I've seen elsewhere is that we're essentially looking at a single stack, SAO, all steel 9mm for ~$1500. I believe the current benchmark for that is a Dan Wesson of your favorite flavor. Personally at this point, I'd probably go for a black Valor, between the two. And I like my classic Sigs more than I like any 1911 I've handled or shot, enough that I have another P220 coming. There's a lot more to the equation than the quality of the SA trigger press.
    The main distinguishing characteristic of a pre-1983 SIG P210, shared only by the Manurhin MR73, is the combination of accuracy (10 shots into 5cm at 50m or 6 shots into 20cm at 25m for the MR73) with reliability and ruggedness mandated and certified by military and constabulary trials. The relevant institutional standards of sidearm quality and performance maintained in Switzerland, Germany, and France between 1899 and 1975, will never be equaled, let alone surpassed. Nothing of the sort applies to any currently manufactured handgun, with the conspicuous exception of the Chapuis continuation of the Manurhin MR73.
    Michael@massmeans.com | Zeleny@post.harvard.edu | westcoastguns@gmail.com | larvatus prodeo @ livejournal | +1-323-363-1860 | “If at first you don’t succeed, keep on sucking till you do succeed.” — Curly Howard, 1936 | “All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better.” — Samuel Beckett, 1984

  2. #22
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    I had a 60's produced Sig P210-6. Clearly the best machined and finished pistol I have or will ever own. There were more machining cuts on the slide stop than any Glock or S&W M&P I own .

    It was way more accurate than I was or am. A real piece of art in metal.

    No knowledge of the current production pieces, but one of the pistols I sold (at a significant profit) that I probably should have kept.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by B0308 View Post
    I had a 60's produced Sig P210-6. Clearly the best machined and finished pistol I have or will ever own. There were more machining cuts on the slide stop than any Glock or S&W M&P I own .
    Herein lies a tale. Early slide stops in the first, second, and third Swiss military contract deliveries, as well as slide stops in the fourth contract delivery, Ausführung (a), numbered from A100001 to circa A120500, have flat checkered thumb pads. The fourth contract, Ausführung (b), numbered from circa A120500 to A213110, features a grooved thumb pad with a curved shelf profile.

    The original design of the slide stop specifies integral construction milled out of a single piece of steel. This construction is retained in the second model of the slide stop with a curved thumb pad, distinguishable by a Rockwell hardness test mark on the side flat, atop the pin. The next issue features a two-piece construction, with the pin staked into the forged lever of the same curved profile. This construction can be detected by inspecting the surface of the slide stop under magnification, for evidence of a finely fitted circular gap about 4.4mm in diameter, located on the outer surface of the slide stop lever, and traces of tool marks inside it. Later on, a cast lever replaced the forged part. This construction can be detected by observing the finely cast sandblasted external surface of the slide stop lever, free of tool marks that characterize its predecessors, with a finely fitted circular gap about 3.7mm in diameter on the outward flat, and minute traces of casting flash inside it. The final variation features a relief cut inside the lever on the collar that retains the pin, matching a reinforcing rib on the frame. This type of slide stop is the only one that fits late production frames distinguished by the presence of the reinforcing rib.

    Long story short, the SIG P210 slide stop construction got downgraded, from a one-piece part milled out of a forging, to a forged pin press-fitted into a milled forging, subsequently replaced by a casting. Subsequent downgrades include the use of light alloys, steel stampings, and music wire springs in the P22x series. The decline of handgun manufacturing in a nutshell.

    notes on the sig p210 parts diagram - larvatus prodeo
    Last edited by zeleny; 04-21-2018 at 05:17 AM.
    Michael@massmeans.com | Zeleny@post.harvard.edu | westcoastguns@gmail.com | larvatus prodeo @ livejournal | +1-323-363-1860 | “If at first you don’t succeed, keep on sucking till you do succeed.” — Curly Howard, 1936 | “All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better.” — Samuel Beckett, 1984

  4. #24
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    Wow, zeleny,

    Mine was an off hand comment about the quality of the pistol, had no idea I'd "nailed it"

    It was an amazing pistol, bought it from a guy in the DC area, who got it in France while in the US Army, sold it to a guy in LA, in the late 80's. Wish I had taken pictures of it when I had it.

  5. #25
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    Anything more about these? I was just reading the most recent issue of AR and saw the P210A in it. Thought I'd come here for the good word...8 months since the last post in this thread. How are these things holding up?

  6. #26
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    Been in love with the P-210 for quite some time. But I could never justify the cost of a classic or even the new "cheaper" American model. Now that I'm into 2 gun matches I find that I am more interested in the AR 15 configured to my tastes. So my utilitarian Beretta 92 will have to suffice.

  7. #27
    https://www.americanrifleman.org/art...a-p210-pistol/

    https://sigtalk.com/p210/247986-swis...p210a-tgt.html

    Between the two links its two different guns, using 10 different brands of ammo with the groups ranging from .49 inches(best) to 1.5" inches(worst) with the majority shooting around 1/2 inch.

  8. #28
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    I bought one of the military trade in P210s that were factory refurbished. It had to be in the late 90s. It was an excellent pistol. I should have kept it. I don’t even remember what I traded it on

  9. #29
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    Question

    I can add that I was as suspicious as anybody about the prospect of an American manufactured 210. I was certain that it would be a disaster, so I bought a 210A late last year to confirm my suspicions. I must have about 800 or so rounds of assorted factory ammo through mine now. I've experienced two malfunctions to date. Since the '80s, I've had the good fortune to own Swiss, German, and now an American 210. My American 201A is cleanly machined in and out,precisely fitted, with no looseness in battery, and has an approx. 3 1/4# clean breaking trigger. The slide/frame fit is actually a bit closer than that of my Swiss P210-6. Of course I realize we probably won't be able to properly evaluate the long-term durability of the American version until they have been in use a lot longer. Perhaps the MIM lockwork, or some other component will prove failure prone? I sure don't pretend to know. All this being said, I think the P210A is likely the most finely fitted and accurate/precise SIG currently produced by SIG USA, and is, IMHO, worth the price of admission.....ymmv

    BTW, I admire the Swiss pistols as much as the next guy, I've owned four. I really do prefer the button magazine release, and the reshaping at the rear of the frame of the German and US guns though. These changes to the traditional design eliminate the slow and awkward, to me at least, heel magazine release, and prevent the severe hammer bite the Swiss guns have always inflicted on me. I still have to remember to put a couple Band-Aids on the web of my shooting hand when I take my -6 to the range. If I forget, the Swiss gun reminds me real quick My favorite of the few 210s I've owned is still the German Legend Target model. I can't claim it is superior to other's choices, but the Legend Target is mine.
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  10. #30
    Site Supporter Tamara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonInWA View Post
    The SIG component quality spiral downward has unfortunately been seen in multiple SIG-Sauer platforms, most graphically in the SIG GSR/1911 line; from 2004 through approximately 2006, very high quality components, both SIG, SIG-Sauer and high-end cottage industry were utilized...
    Assembly of those early ones was pretty haphazard, though. They were primo pistol kits, however. I was still at CCA at the time and our head gunsmith called them "Brownell's 1911s".

    Fortunately my specimen was assembled pretty well, but I saw some where a person had obviously taken "drop-in fit" a little too literally.
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