American P210

[OlongJohnson]

I’m the stepson of a tool and die maker, and grew up with machinists. Every single one thinks everything is crap. They are impossible to please.

That's the risk of knowing how to measure and make things.

[HeavyDuty]

That's the risk of knowing how to measure and make things.

That, and to my experience they are universally offended by anything that doesn't meet their own personal sense of precision. If the print says +/-0.01, they bitch that it isn’t +/-0.001. And if the print says +/-0.001, they bitch that it isn’t +/-0.0009.

I’ve learned to ignore most of their bellyaching.

[OlongJohnson]

My friend who was the best machinist I've worked with wasn't like that. It needed to be to print. If the print didn't have the right tolerances on it, that was on the engineers. But then, he was accountable for productivity and making parts to print. And it was also a change of pace for him; he was capable of producing parts with vastly greater precision than was required where we were.

It frustrates me severely that so much of the gun industry violates, "I shouldn't be able to tell it's f'ed up just by looking at it."

[OlongJohnson]

Dammit. This got me looking at them again. The standard model is a few ounces lighter than a steel Commander 1911. It's about halfway between Commander and full size in length, with a 5-inch barrel. It looks like the grip addresses the issues I have with 1911 grips. The safety looks like it should be better than the blocky, square-edged safeties that come on Dan Wessons. It's ~2/3 the price of a Duty Treat Valor, if you can find one. The magazines are only a few bucks more than P220 magazines. Hmmmm... I may have to go see the pusher and finger-molest one.

[zeleny]

Dammit. This got me looking at them again. The standard model is a few ounces lighter than a steel Commander 1911. It's about halfway between Commander and full size in length, with a 5-inch barrel. It looks like the grip addresses the issues I have with 1911 grips. The safety looks like it should be better than the blocky, square-edged safeties that come on Dan Wessons. It's ~2/3 the price of a Duty Treat Valor, if you can find one. The magazines are only a few bucks more than P220 magazines. Hmmmm... I may have to go see the pusher and finger-molest one.

I cannot comment on the P210A. But having carried and practiced with an echt SIG P210, occasionally substituting an M1911 variant, I submit the following points:

1. The most palpable differences in the form factor relate to the semi-wraparound grips that are thinner and shorter than those of the M1911. Accommodating .45ACP or 10x25mm Norma ammo us the only reason to favor the latter.
2. Owing to its feed ramp geometry, the P210 is far more reliable with most every bullet configuration, than any M1911 variant, with FMJ.
3. A milspec P210 will group at least twice as tight as a milspec M1911 with ammo of similar quality. While an accurized M1911 might meet or exceed this standard of precision, it will maintain it over a tiny fraction of the service life of its Swiss counterpart.
4. Given the features patented by Charles Petter (a differentially bored slide opening replacing the barrel bushing) and Max Müller (an integral curved barrel lug replacing the swinging link), the P210 neither requires nor allows for accurizing or maintenance applicable to an M1911.

Tl;dr: For social work with 9mm Para, there is no reason to choose an M1911.

[OlongJohnson]

Just trolled through the P210 section at the blue forum.

Apparently, broken recoil spring assemblies are a thing. Sig recommends changing the complete assembly at 3000 rounds, but for much of 2019 hasn't had any in stock. The screw that holds the whole thing together pops its head off, and people have waited months for a replacement. Some people have been told it's being redesigned, other people have been told no, it's not. SOP for Sig CS: the utility of the call can vary wildly with who picks up the phone.

Not surprisingly, none of the brand forum participants seem to have done anything about IDing a better screw that would solve the problem. Since the screw has no drive feature - must be gripped with a collet or something for assembly - it's likely the case that it's a screw machine part. Screw machine fasteners are weak sauce compared to a properly headed, rolled thread fastener, but when companies that manufacture proper fasteners ask how many you intend to buy, they assume the number you tell them is followed by "million."

Hogue has released "Standard" style grips under their own brand (they are apparently the OE supplier) and has said they are working on G10. I have sent them some comments, but have little hope they won't screw it up due to following recent Sig paradigms. Some of the OE Standard grips people post photos of are not particularly well fit or nicely checkered, especially for the price point.

There are reports of some guns choking due to being dirty (hammer not falling due to slide not going into battery) after just a few hundred rounds. A problem resolved by cleaning and lube.

A handful of people with real round counts. Most think they're doing a lot if they're in the 1xxx range.

I'll keep watching, but I'm in no hurry.

[MGW]

Sig sucks and I hate them. So much potential. Such terrible execution.

[OlongJohnson]

It's senior management doing the same thing over and over and learning the wrong lessons every time it doesn't sink the company or get them all fired.

Rather than, "Let's figure out how and do what it takes to make sure that never happens again," it becomes, "Well, we can get through that next time, too..."

I guarantee you there are middle managers and engineers who have to actually soak up the incoming, who understand what's wrong and how badly it needs to be fixed. But what are they going to do, commute to S&W?

[zeleny]

It's senior management doing the same thing over and over and learning the wrong lessons every time it doesn't sink the company or get them all fired.

What do you expect from a company owned and managed by convicted felons?

[OlongJohnson]

Just cruised through the latest threads in blue world again. What an unmitigated ish-show. Other parts are falling out routinely, apparently due to eliminating a staking from the build, and Sig says send it back to the factory, whereas some users just learn how to put it back in and do so when it repeatedly ends up on the bench.