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Thread: Thoughts on LEO Rules of Engagement

  1. #91
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    Corruption comes in many different forms. There's the old style graft, and then there's the corruption of the very soul of an agency by politicians seeking to change the nature of the job. Graft occurs everywhere, to a greater or lesser extent. If kept to a minimum, it's hardly noticed, and doesn't interfere with governments core duties. In other places (Chicago comes to mind) it is the reason for being for government. My own town is historically somewhere in the middle there, most of the time. The new type of corruption, which seeks to transform the profession of LE into something else, is different. Different because it masks itself as 'reform', and spreads like a virus...carried by the Good Idea Fairy. Particular incidents are used and overblown to show a 'systemic problem' in an agency...and they have the fix. Usually PERF is brought in (which not only wants to transform the profession, they want to change society), or similar reforms are proposed. A new emphasis on 'traffic safety' usually occurs during this time as well. Demographic tracking of enforcement activity is instituted, and cops begin getting the message. The overall atmosphere also leads to an often undiscussed loss of trust....the cops begin to lose trust in the judgement of the public, as well as vice-versa. Recruiting is tailored to demographic needs and creating the "new face" of an agency....and this cycle then feeds on itself. The focus begins to shift to enforcing infractions against other wise law abiding citizens....and avoiding the scary bad people, who even if you're one of the cops inclined to pursue them, you quickly realize it is unwise from a career standpoint. So you adapt, or leave. Training is increasingly geared towards non-confrontational 'skills', Implicit Bias, inclusivity, etc. But occasionally....a cop is unable to avoid being in a situation where they bad guy shoots at them...and they react, sometimes ineffectively, sometimes badly.....and the cycle begins anew.

  2. #92
    Member cclaxton's Avatar
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    Maybe the answer is for police departments to tell citizens they are responsible for their own safety and security, and police are only there to take reports and file charges after the fact? Otherwise it seems like police are being placed in an impossible job.
    That a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defense of a free state;

  3. #93
    Site Supporter psalms144.1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cclaxton View Post
    Maybe the answer is for police departments to tell citizens they are responsible for their own safety and security, and police are only there to take reports and file charges after the fact? Otherwise it seems like police are being placed in an impossible job.
    I'll wager MOST police officers/agents would find that proposal reprehensible in the extreme - those of us who view what we do as a profession or calling would have nothing to do with that style of "policing." I'm SURE that's where we're headed, however - because at a certain point, the "new policing" popular think will drive officers into being strictly reactive.

  4. #94
    Reference any lessons from policing in places where patrol officers are not armed:

    One thing that stood out to me was hearing of line of duty deaths in UK policing, investigating the articles on those officer deaths had brief bios of the officers and their off duty hobbies. Several years ago I heard of three LOD deaths within a period of about 24-36 months. In reading the officer bios, they were all martial artists on the side, two of them for years proceeding entering police work. Perhaps it is a bad example since they were all murdered by suspects, but it is somewhat impressive to me. Most police officers in the US seem uninterested in outside firearms training and activities. Perhaps the lack of other options make tussling an important enough skill to survival that UK police prioritize it more than US police prioritize firearms training?

    I feel like there might be something useful tangled up in that observation. Either trying to get officer pursue training on their own, or maybe increasing the number of officers comfortable using defensive tactics. Obviously plenty of people will still need shot, more than enough to give the media the controversy it desires. But, reducing the number of people breaking out in holes through confident and able policing is probably a good goal either way.

    I will defer of course to anyone who is a police officer in the UK or has more firsthand knowledge.
    Last edited by Chemsoldier; 04-11-2018 at 10:50 AM.

  5. #95
    gulag bound blues's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psalms144.1 View Post
    I'll wager MOST police officers/agents would find that proposal reprehensible in the extreme - those of us who view what we do as a profession or calling would have nothing to do with that style of "policing." I'm SURE that's where we're headed, however - because at a certain point, the "new policing" popular think will drive officers into being strictly reactive.
    The police will become field agents for insurance companies...submit their report directly to AIG, (and their ilk), then move on to the next case while the "claimant" awaits payment of damages for their loss. The brave new world...no longer so far fetched given recent trends.
    Every day I convince myself that I can't be more disgusted by what I see our country willingly turning itself into...
    ...and then I find out the next morning just how wrong I was.

  6. #96
    Lives to Enable Revolvers Stephanie B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlw View Post
    Congress can link federal funding to compliance, but it can't mandate.
    That is pretty much a distinction without a difference and has been for decades.
    There's trouble on the streets tonight, I can feel it in my bones.

  7. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Stephanie B View Post
    That is pretty much a distinction without a difference and has been for decades.
    No it's not.

    For example, UCR data is not a complete picture of the actual crime stats in the U.S. The reason is that Congress can't order state and local governments to report crime data. Congress has tied the reporting of crime data to being eligible for federal grants. Agencies, and there are plenty of them, that choose not to pursue federal grants can simply choose not report their crime data.
    I had an ER nurse in a class. I noticed she kept taking all head shots. Her response when asked why, "'I've seen too many people who have been shot in the chest putting up a fight in the ER." Point taken.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephanie B View Post
    That is pretty much a distinction without a difference and has been for decades.
    Yep, the only reason LA went to .08 and 21 to drink was to keep Federal highway construction funds.

  9. #99
    Member Gadfly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlw View Post
    For example, UCR data is not a complete picture of the actual crime stats in the U.S..
    Ahh the scam that is the UCR...

    I just got elected Sheriff, and I need a bigger budget. (crime "A" happens: Crook goes into gas station, brandishes gun, steals money, pistol whips a customer, and fires of a round at the clerk who hit the alarm button.) How do I report this? Well, I need a bigger budget, so I report an attempted murder for the gunshot, an armed robber, and an aggravated assault w deadly weapon for the pistol whipping.

    Now, its four years later and I need to get re elected, so i need to show results. (the exact same crime "A" happens.) How do I report this? Well, I need to show I have cleaned up the town. So I report the pela deal we gave the suspect, we drop the attempted murder and agg robbery in exchange for a plea to simple assault with a 1 year sentence that you only have to do 6 months of... Look, crime is down, there was only a simple assault!

    Police report to the UCR, but there is no standard for HOW they report. Do you report ALL 4 crimes from the gas station robbery as separate crimes (which they all are), or do I only report the most serious crime of the event, or do I report what the actual conviction was (which is ALWAYS plead down from what really happened)? People juggle numbers.

    Watch 'The Wire" from HBO, its on Netflix. It gives a great insight into numbers juggling in a fictional Baltimore.

    About the only reliable numbers in the UCR are homicides, simply because its hard to make a dead body not exist on paper.
    A gun is a tool, Marian; no better or no worse than any other tool: an axe, a shovel or anything. A gun is as good or as bad as the man using it. Remember that. - Shane

  10. #100
    Member Gadfly's Avatar
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    Slight side rant...

    I am always glad when people want to know more about LEO work and use of force. BUT... the don't really want to know. You point out about Graham V Conner, Garner V Tennessee... You explain the under Pennsylvania V Mimms that "yes, the officer can order you out of the car"... and they just yell and screech and don't really want facts.

    As many folks on here have mentioned, if you have never actually done the job of an LEO, there is no way to describe just how little you can know about what goes on in the Job. From the training, to the agency politics, to the media manipulations, to the 3am dealings with local shit heads.

    People think they know about police work because they watched Hill Street Blues, or CSI Miami.
    There is a lot of Dunning Kruger.

    If I were to go down to the local hospital and lecture them on how they should treat cancer, because I watch a lot of E.R. reruns, and my Uncle was a doctor, it would be about the same level of usefulness.

    This was NOT directed at anyone in particular on this thread. It is more from dealing with this crap on Facebook a lot...

    End of side rant...
    A gun is a tool, Marian; no better or no worse than any other tool: an axe, a shovel or anything. A gun is as good or as bad as the man using it. Remember that. - Shane

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