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Thread: Thoughts on LEO Rules of Engagement

  1. #81
    10.3" Master Race TGS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMC View Post
    Maybe I'm wrong, and unicorns will save us.
    Incredibly well stated, AMC.
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  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMC View Post
    I am happy to continue the discussion, and you have hit upon the Crux of the issue we are discussing in this thread, though I believe inadvertently.

    The point you made leaves the areas of use of force training, law, and policy behind, and moves into complex sociological issues. I fully agree that there is no strictly "law enforcement" method to resolve those issues. I am intimately aware of the diverse makeup of those impacted neighborhoods, having worked in them for over two and a half decades. I know that the good people there outnumber the bad. Hell, even the bad guys aren't all 100% bad sometimes. I've seen a few do some selfless things on occasion. It is behavior that LE is concerned with.... specifically the antisocial behavior our society has deemed criminal. The current rend towards gross mission creep in civilian LE isn't helping anyone, and in fact is going in a very disturbing direction. Specifically I'm talking about the trend of some agencies, like mine, to begin focusing more on social justice than criminal justice. You do not...I repeat DO NOT....want armed government agencies enforcing those attitudes and issues. It not only dilutes the core mission, it turns our focus away from the criminal who harms others, to the citizen guilty of wrongthink. Can we all agree that's a road we don't want to go down? By the way, we've already started.

    The core of the problem is that we ARE now attempting to legislatively change how LE interacts with crime infested neighborhoods, in order to make being a criminal safer for members of favored demographic groups and subcultures. This is the inevitable outgrowth of intersectional identity politics. Changing the law regarding use of force, in order to avoid injuring criminals, because social policies are resulting in too many criminals, is not a recipe for success. In fact, it will worsen the very problem you seek to fix.

    The crime subculture in some minority neighborhoods is toxic, and negatively affects everyone there. The various reasons and justifications used to explain why it doesn't change, don't change that fact. Asking the rest of society to change it's laws and rules to accommodate that? Again, not a recipe for any kind of success...and again, shifts responsibility for the criminal behavior away from perpetrators onto society at large. Perhaps you subscribe to that viewpoint. I don't, and neither does the history of Western law and philosophy.

    In summary, if you think that changing use of force law to restrict LE in order to make it safer for people to resist arrest because some communities have developed a subculture that rejects abiding by the law is a good idea, good luck. Maybe I'm wrong, and unicorns will save us.
    The crime subculture culture you describe is a variation of the Victim culture we see emerging in liberal / academia/ PC culture. The difference being the crime subculture is going directly from the Honor culture to the victim culture, or a hybrid of the two, skipping over the dignity culture which forms the backbone on modern western mainstream culture.

    @Cody - the people you describe are, as AMC states, members of “A” community but not members of “the” community. Rather, they are members of a ghetto /criminal subculture which is, thankfully, is not yet the mainstream. In fact the whole reason law enforcement exists it to prevent “The” mainstream culture from degrading into the Ghetto / Criminal subculture culture. Literally a thin blue line. This isn’t a racial thing either, trailer park tweekers are as much a part of the criminal subculture as inner city Baltimore.

    There are good people stuck in the the ghetto criminal subculture, however, my experience has been the truly good people are all either trying to leave that subculture for mainstream culture or trying to reform that subculture. Reform is hard and some of the latter will tire of lack of progress and leave for main stream culture.

  3. #83
    Member cclaxton's Avatar
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    Thanks for the great reply. I agree with you about the focus on social justice than criminal justice...it's wrong. I agree using policy and legislation to try and change the law on use of force is doomed to failure. I don't subscribe to the view that criminals should not be held accountable or punished less. But I do think that enforcement actions need to track with social and cultural changes in order to give time for change to occur. In other words, the root causes of the toxic environment need to be the priority. When the good people in these communities don't trust the police and prosecutors to help, then change won't occur. From what I see that is where we are: anti-snitch is everywhere, even among the "good residents", no one wants to turn in any friend or family that is acting criminally, and their is a "us" versus "them" attitude. Now add in the social justice crowd, who I find nothing more than opportunists, and some event that triggers community anger and we get Ferguson, Baltimore, Memphis, Dallas, etc. Things are not better. And quite honestly the community leadership simply isn't there either. What are we (society) going to do about that?
    That a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defense of a free state;

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by cclaxton View Post
    Thanks for the great reply. I agree with you about the focus on social justice than criminal justice...it's wrong. I agree using policy and legislation to try and change the law on use of force is doomed to failure. I don't subscribe to the view that criminals should not be held accountable or punished less. But I do think that enforcement actions need to track with social and cultural changes in order to give time for change to occur. In other words, the root causes of the toxic environment need to be the priority. When the good people in these communities don't trust the police and prosecutors to help, then change won't occur. From what I see that is where we are: anti-snitch is everywhere, even among the "good residents", no one wants to turn in any friend or family that is acting criminally, and their is a "us" versus "them" attitude. Now add in the social justice crowd, who I find nothing more than opportunists, and some event that triggers community anger and we get Ferguson, Baltimore, Memphis, Dallas, etc. Things are not better. And quite honestly the community leadership simply isn't there either. What are we (society) going to do about that?
    "Enforcement actions need to track with social and cultural changes in order to give time for change to occur." Im not sure exactly what this means, or what that would entail in practice. I'd need specifics to comment because I don't know what you mean by this statement.

    "In other words, the root causes of the toxic environment need to be the priority." Okay, well, in a broad sociological context I agree with you....but it has nothing to do with law enforcement at all, much less LE use of force policy. Fatherless homes, intergenerational welfare addiction, lack of meaning and direction in young lives, a culture which flat out rejects education......all very real problems which need addressing, and all of which have nothing to do with LE, except for the fact that we have to deal with the criminal behavior which is an outgrowth of those pathologies. Look.....it's not as if we in LE who have been dealing with this stuff for decades are unaware of these issues. We are not the uncaring knuckledraggers the progressive media portray us as. You aren't bringing up anything we don't already know. Frankly probably better than the rest of society.

    As for what we an do? How about holding people accountable to the law? As individuals. Because if you don't.....then you have already given up on the idea of the law anyway.

  5. #85
    Member cclaxton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMC View Post
    "Enforcement actions need to track with social and cultural changes in order to give time for change to occur." Im not sure exactly what this means, or what that would entail in practice. I'd need specifics to comment because I don't know what you mean by this statement.

    "In other words, the root causes of the toxic environment need to be the priority." Okay, well, in a broad sociological context I agree with you....but it has nothing to do with law enforcement at all, much less LE use of force policy. Fatherless homes, intergenerational welfare addiction, lack of meaning and direction in young lives, a culture which flat out rejects education......all very real problems which need addressing, and all of which have nothing to do with LE, except for the fact that we have to deal with the criminal behavior which is an outgrowth of those pathologies. Look.....it's not as if we in LE who have been dealing with this stuff for decades are unaware of these issues. We are not the uncaring knuckledraggers the progressive media portray us as. You aren't bringing up anything we don't already know. Frankly probably better than the rest of society.

    As for what we an do? How about holding people accountable to the law? As individuals. Because if you don't.....then you have already given up on the idea of the law anyway.
    Holding people accountable to the law isn't changing behavior in those neighborhoods, which is one of the goals of law enforcement. Instead it helps to perpetuate the toxic environment and the anti-snitching. While I agree we need to hold people accountable, without cultural change in those communities, it will just continue, and will get worse, as we are now seeing. And, we need to be honest here, with the help of a sympathetic media they are winning the PR campaign that make cops look like the problem. Something needs to change. I don't have the answers but what we are doing now is not working out.
    That a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defense of a free state;

  6. #86
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    Protecting the innocent by putting away the guilty is still a worthy goal. During the social debate, IMO, the priority should remain on protecting the victims of crime.
    Last edited by LSP552; 04-09-2018 at 04:54 AM.

  7. #87
    HAS ELECTROLYTES LittleLebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cclaxton View Post
    Holding people accountable to the law isn't changing behavior in those neighborhoods, which is one of the goals of law enforcement. Instead it helps to perpetuate the toxic environment and the anti-snitching. While I agree we need to hold people accountable, without cultural change in those communities, it will just continue, and will get worse, as we are now seeing. And, we need to be honest here, with the help of a sympathetic media they are winning the PR campaign that make cops look like the problem. Something needs to change. I don't have the answers but what we are doing now is not working out.
    Railing about "justice" either legal or social, won't do half as much as jobs and Lyndon Bates Johnson is the real culprit when it comes to the decay of the inner cities.
    #RESIST

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleLebowski View Post
    Railing about "justice" either legal or social, won't do half as much as jobs and Lyndon Bates Johnson is the real culprit when it comes to the decay of the inner cities.
    That's "Baines", youngun. And from your description, it seems that he might well be considered the bane of the inner cities of which you speak.
    Every day I convince myself that I can't be more disgusted by what I see our country willingly turning itself into...
    ...and then wake up the next morning only to find just how wrong I was...day after day.

  9. #89
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    While I agree that Law Enforcement and punishment are not the root ingredients for a functional free society, and alone cannot ensure or secure one, the disconnect here might lie in the mistaken belief that we are actually "holding people accountable to criminal behavior". I can assure you, that ain't happening.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by cclaxton View Post
    Something needs to change. I don't have the answers but what we are doing now is not working out.
    Sorry. Change is not on the menu and never will be.

    Thanks for playing!

    Alright longer answer: the police answer to the elected ,appointed and “elected” officials. Use your imagination on what the “ “ means. Many politicians are well aware of who is engaging on criminal activity in their neighborhoods. In some cities those people are the political campaign bankrollers. Well, crooked city officials can’t let too many criminals go to jail or their own pocket gets hurt,and even the legit politicians don’t want to be on the wrong side of a CNN opinion poll.

    Thus letting cops lock up bad guys is bad for PR,and is bad for paid off local politicos and their associates. Bonus for the latter,when the community goes to pot from all the violence a ready scapegoat exists in the form of the same police department. Since the police are sworn personnel who answer to a leader that is appointed by the same people who profit from the violence , blaming them is an easy and effective way to dodge the Real Problems.

    Instead of black Americans asking their politicians why so many people of color are born into economic slavery in the drug game,and why so many black politicians are indicted and investigated for corruption,instead the questions are why so many cops are “shooting black people”. Blaming the white dude in the squad car keeps a lid on the real problems in the black community,and thus prevents any practical means to solve them.
    The Minority Marksman.
    "When you meet a swordsman, draw your sword: Do not recite poetry to one who is not a poet."
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