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Thread: Thoughts on LEO Rules of Engagement

  1. #31
    Member cclaxton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TC215 View Post
    Iím not disagreeing with you about pointing guns at people. Iím just saying that when using less lethal tools, lethal cover should be present.
    Agreed

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    That a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defense of a free state;

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by cclaxton View Post
    In Britain, Ireland, Norway, Iceland and New Zealand, officers are unarmed when they are on patrol. I am not suggesting that is what we should do in the US. But I would think we could learn some of the tactics they use that are successful at arresting people without pointing guns at them.
    Sure we'll just engage in ethnic and socioeconomic segregation. If you're in an affluent class you'll get police service, if you're from an undesirable caste the world will pretend you never existed, just like people do when they want to compare the greatness of Europe to the USA. Unlike Sacramento, the police in the Europe and New Zealand would have never responded to a call about about property being damage in a poor black neighborhood, because over there they're not the kind of people that get police service.

    If the police in the US only responded to calls upper class areas, they really wouldn't need to carry guns either, but that's not our model of policing. Unlike Europe, the police in the US provide service to decent people that happen to live in bad areas, and spend most of their time where the crime and the criminals are at. I'm not claiming that the police in the US always do a great job, but lets not be disingenuous about why there are fewer police shootings in Europe, police can't shoot criminals if they don't come in contact with them.
    Whether you think you can or you can't, you're probably right.

  3. #33
    gulag bound blues's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by txdpd View Post
    Sure we'll just engage in ethnic and socioeconomic segregation. If you're in an affluent class you'll get police service, if you're from an undesirable caste the world will pretend you never existed, just like people do when they want to compare the greatness of Europe to the USA. Unlike Sacramento, the police in the Europe and New Zealand would have never responded to a call about about property being damage in a poor black neighborhood, because over there they're not the kind of people that get police service.

    If the police in the US only responded to calls upper class areas, they really wouldn't need to carry guns either, but that's not our model of policing. Unlike Europe, the police in the US provide service to decent people that happen to live in bad areas, and spend most of their time where the crime and the criminals are at. I'm not claiming that the police in the US always do a great job, but lets not be disingenuous about why there are fewer police shootings in Europe, police can't shoot criminals if they don't come in contact with them.
    I had a guy I pulled over on Key Biscayne, FL, an affluent area outside Miami, tell me that if I didn't (and couldn't afford to) live in the area I had no business stopping people who lived there. I asked where he was from and he told me Argentina. I told him that we were near the marina and he could probably hire a boat to take him back if he so chose. (And did my utmost to give him a reason to, after the fact.)
    Last edited by blues; 04-05-2018 at 12:11 PM.
    Every day I convince myself that I can't be more disgusted by what I see our country willingly turning itself into...
    ...and then wake up the next morning only to find just how wrong I was...day after day.

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by txdpd View Post
    Sure we'll just engage in ethnic and socioeconomic segregation. If you're in an affluent class you'll get police service, if you're from an undesirable caste the world will pretend you never existed, just like people do when they want to compare the greatness of Europe to the USA. Unlike Sacramento, the police in the Europe and New Zealand would have never responded to a call about about property being damage in a poor black neighborhood, because over there they're not the kind of people that get police service.

    If the police in the US only responded to calls upper class areas, they really wouldn't need to carry guns either, but that's not our model of policing. Unlike Europe, the police in the US provide service to decent people that happen to live in bad areas, and spend most of their time where the crime and the criminals are at. I'm not claiming that the police in the US always do a great job, but lets not be disingenuous about why there are fewer police shootings in Europe, police can't shoot criminals if they don't come in contact with them.
    While I don't have any first hand knowledge about how policing is done in Europe, I do regularly hear about whole neighborhoods in European cities that the local constabulary won't risk entering. We don't have that in the states. Even if the neighborhoods are dangerous and the residents are aggressive towards local LE, our officers still go into those places. Then again, there are a whole lot of neighborhoods I've seen that I wouldn't want to go into to police if I wasn't armed either.
    My posts only represent my personal opinion and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or official policies of any employer, past or present. Obvious spelling errors are likely the result of an iPhone keyboard.

  5. #35
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    In Northern Ireland cops are armed and they can carry off duty.

    I would like to get the opinion of at @Luger on this.

  6. #36
    Site Supporter psalms144.1's Avatar
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    The fact that this thread exists makes me incredibly happy to be retiring in about 2 years +/- a couple of months. It also reinforces my happiness that I've convinced all of my children, cousins' kids, nieces and nephews to not consider a career in LE.

    I can't wait to retire and move somewhere with a low density population and a high density of 2A friendly folks.
    Last edited by psalms144.1; 04-05-2018 at 02:44 PM.

  7. #37
    gulag bound blues's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psalms144.1 View Post
    The fact that this thread exists makes me incredibly happy to be retiring in about 2 years +/- a couple of months. It also reinforces my happiness that I've convinced all of my children, cousins' kids, nieces and nephews to not consider a career in LE.

    I can't wait to retire and move somewhere with a low density population and a high density of 2A friendly folks.


    "Can you hear me now?"
    Every day I convince myself that I can't be more disgusted by what I see our country willingly turning itself into...
    ...and then wake up the next morning only to find just how wrong I was...day after day.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by blues View Post


    "Can you hear me now?"
    Lord, have mercy, you are making me homesick....

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by psalms144.1 View Post
    I can't wait to retire and move somewhere with a low density population and a high density of 2A friendly folks.
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheNewbie View Post
    The articles were not as bad as what I thought they would be, but it is clearly written by someone who has never been a cop. Not that you are not qualified to comment on the subject unless you are a cop. Of course non cops can be right and shed wisdom on the subject.
    In regards to problematic LE shootings, we need to clarify what we're talking about. There are mistake of fact shootings which are still held to be objectively reasonable under the Graham standard. There are clearly unreasonable and criminal actions which are usually dealt with pretty quickly, and finally there are the bad outcomes resulting from poor/non existent training (bystander hit, negligent discharge, etc). Then there are the flat out lawful, righteous shootings of armed bad guys that only become "problems" due to political concerns.

    Most of what has been attempted in this area by politicians (including LE leadership), is in the area of policy or legal changes. None of that is likely to improve public safety (the opposite is likely), or to even improve outcomes in the way they hope. As everyone here with knowledge and experience has been saying for years, you can't fix training with policy. It doesn't work, and will result in de-policing...which I actually believe is the real goal anyway. No, Cody, we're not going to police like "those guys in England or Norway or wherever they're nice and don't shoot bad guys. Here ain't there. A significant minority of Americans (a very loud one) is uncomfortable with police use of force under any circumstances. Many well meaning but clueless people are listening to the loudmouths. Good luck. As DB has said, folks are gonna get exactly the policing they deserve. Spoiler alert.....it's NONE.

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