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Thread: Thoughts on LEO Rules of Engagement

  1. #1

    Thoughts on LEO Rules of Engagement

    David French has written a couple of interesting articles - if you don't know him, he's conservative - and you'll find some good articles on 2a. He's not super conservative, which is maybe why I like him. Regardless, all of his articles are well-written and avoid inserting judgemental sentences and tainted reporting. I think he just lays out very rational and logical arguments, which you may or may not disagree with.

    Anyways, he's had two recent articles on LEOs - and I wondered what this forum's take would be on it. The 2nd article is the one where I think more people may object to, as he argues for more restrictive LEO ROE, similar to the military.

    I know Greg Ellifritz has made similar comments - though stating that poor police outcomes is more a result of inadequate training (funds, priorities, etc) than bad LEOs. The Broward County shooting (not Parkland, but the one where the cop was lying on the ground with his leg being held) is a good example.

    https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/...y-problematic/
    https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/...ine-restraint/

  2. #2
    Member Trooper224's Avatar
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    I really don't have a problem with either one of those articles, because they only echo many things I've said myself over the last few years. They may be uncomfortable to read, but if we can avoid instinctively circling the blue wagons we have to admit there's much truth there. As LEOs, our authority is based entirely on the public trust. Every time we shoot an unarmed individual sitting in a car, crawling on the floor, etc. , it erodes that trust. We MUST have the courage to be as sure as we can be that those rounds are necessary. Often that means incurring additional risk to ourselves, but that's what you signed up for. "I was in fear for my life." is losing credibility as an excuse simply because it's used so often when it really shouldn't be the case.

    To be far less diplomatic: I see far too many cops who are just pussies without any iron in their soul or ice in their veins. Law enforcement can be a contact sport, you should have realized that when you tried out for the team.
    Last edited by Trooper224; 04-04-2018 at 03:39 PM.
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  3. #3
    Member cclaxton's Avatar
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    I can't help but wonder how UK Law Enforcement would have dealt with this situation and whether there are tactics/methods that can be leveraged here.
    That a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defense of a free state;

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    Very Pro Dentist Chuck Haggard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cclaxton View Post
    I can't help but wonder how UK Law Enforcement would have dealt with this situation and whether there are tactics/methods that can be leveraged here.
    In a shocking number of cases they have to run away and wait for the armed officers to arrive.
    I am the owner of Agile/Training and Consulting
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  5. #5
    Very Pro Dentist Chuck Haggard's Avatar
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    Point of order;

    American LEOs do not have "rules of engagement". The military has such rules, in the LE world you have a Constitutionally reasonable use of force or you do not.
    I am the owner of Agile/Training and Consulting
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  6. #6
    There is no "the police" in the United States. There are over 18,000 individual law enforcement agencies in the U.S., each with their own policies and procedures, and of those, over 17,900 are under stand and local control. The only person with supervisory authority over me is my Sheriff, and the only body that can dictate duties to my Sheriff is the state legislature.

    The only entity that can uniformly put any mandates on all domestic law enforcement in the United States is the United States Supreme Court. Anyone who tells you otherwise is unqualified to converse on the topic. Period. Congress can't even dictate mandates to state and local agencies; says the SCOTUS. Congress can link federal funding to compliance, but it can't mandate.

    SCOTUS has handed down three landmark cases in the area of use of force. They are:

    Graham v. Conner
    Tennessee v. Garner
    Scott v. Harris

    Anyone one not amply familiar with these cases is ignorant on the subject of use of force and is steadfastly unqualified to converse on the topic.
    I had an ER nurse in a class. I noticed she kept taking all head shots. Her response when asked why, "'I've seen too many people who have been shot in the chest putting up a fight in the ER." Point taken.

  7. #7
    Site Supporter PearTree's Avatar
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    Read both articles, disagree with the majority. The only thing I agree with is as quoted, "Iím concerned that our bar for training, competence, and courage is often too low." This I agree with completely, and if changed to a higher standard I believe would solve most if not all of the problems we are having with shootings.
    The rest is a military lawyer who has never spent a day as a cop outrunning his headlights.
    Edit: JLW's post is spot on as well, agree with all the points made.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
    Last edited by PearTree; 04-04-2018 at 06:40 PM.

  8. #8
    Mr. Shovel Lover Hambo's Avatar
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    So the author would like LE to not kill as many people they do, but it was OK that his unit killed a couple of non-combatants by accident. If civilian LE were allowed that kind of leeway we wouldn't be talking about shootings at all.
    Last edited by Hambo; 04-04-2018 at 06:48 PM.
    John Wick didn't kill all those people because they broke his toaster.-MickAK

  9. #9
    Member cclaxton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Haggard View Post
    In a shocking number of cases they have to run away and wait for the armed officers to arrive.
    Are there any statistics on use of force in the UK that you can share?

    Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
    That a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defense of a free state;

  10. #10
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    It never gets discussed, but the best way to not get shot by the police is:

    - Donít do criminal stuff
    - If you do criminal stuff, donít resist arrest
    - If you resist arrest, donít have a gun or act in a manner that a reasonable period might think you have a gun.

    Iím trying to think of any recent police shootings that gathered media attention that would have happened if the shootee had just followed these rules. None come to mind.....

    The media NEVER discusses the contribution of the shootee in these cases.

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